Fresh Server Pvp-Set

[Sadcab 2]

Lol, this thread is basically one dude who can't put in the time and effort to achieve something so he doesn't want anyone else to have it. It's like telling a scholar not to expand his education because the guy who only did a 2 year doesn't want him to be smarter because he can't put the effort lol

Taurior,

Cheer up buttercup and do not comment on this thread for you have no idea what you are talking about.

[Taurior 2]

4 minutes ago, Sadcab said:

Lol, this thread is basically one dude who can't put in the time and effort to achieve something so he doesn't want anyone else to have it. It's like telling a scholar not to expand his education because the guy who only did a 2 year doesn't want him to be smarter because he can't put the effort lol

Taurior,

Cheer up buttercup and do not comment on this thread for you have no idea what you are talking about.

You clearly didn't read this thread, I will rank to rank 12 and possibly further if my schedule allows me to. so I will benefit from the earlier gear update. Keep troll posts away from this discussion please, there's better places to troll around.

[Sadcab 2]

That is the thing though I am thoroughly convinced you are either A. Trolling or B. Retarded 

Which one is it? I am not meaning to insult you however you putting me in a rather awkward position of what to think of you? If you are ranking to 12 you are aware of the time and effort it takes to achieve that rank. Any retard can clear MC and BWL and so on, not so much later content but even that is easy (Grizzly is the proof of that kappa). That being said why not implement the same system that Nostalrius has that Rewards players for there effort? Its not like its GAME BREAKING HOLY фекал status upgrades in the long run. There are ways to achieve almost if not identical DPS numbers in PvE with proper itemization coming from just PvE available items. 

[Sadcab 2]

5 minutes ago, Sadcab said:

That is the thing though I am thoroughly convinced you are either A. Trolling or B. Retarded 

Which one is it? I am not meaning to insult you however you putting me in a rather awkward position of what to think of you? If you are ranking to 12 you are aware of the time and effort it takes to achieve that rank. Any retard can clear MC and BWL and so on, not so much later content but even that is eas. That being said why not implement the same system that Nostalrius has that Rewards players for there effort? Its not like its GAME BREAKING HOLY фекал status upgrades in the long run. There are ways to achieve almost if not identical DPS numbers in PvE with proper itemization coming from just PvE available items. 

 

 

 

 

[Majinbuu 0]

seriously naxx is way too far away for pvp set upgrade.

ваууing no sense. Upgrade earlier or pvp scene = ded

[void_echo 10]

11 hours ago, Wetpine said:

 

No there aren't enough incentives to rank if the gear is worse than T2. 

The bigger problem is that after AQ is released, there aren't any incentives to rank at all anymore, if the gear stays as it is (in the upgraded state).

[Adeline 2]

11 hours ago, Taurior said:

I've said it often already, but PVe has the same problem with warriors/rogues. In order for them to beat other warriors/rogues with R14 weps, they have to also farm those R14 weps, which not everyone is able to do due to RL(not even mentioning how boring it can be for some PVE players), and ppl who have the time to PVP that much do have the time to raid every week. Yes, the number of R14 weps is small but even having 1 warrior/rogue with those weps in your raid will ruin the competitive gameplay for that class.

This isn't true. The r14 weaps are obviously stronger than any other weapons you can find in BWL but strong enough to effectively "ruin competitive play for that class"? No chance. That would then mean that dps rankings would almost purely be made out of r14 characters I suppose, since there are like 80 r14 melees on the old realm. That is not the reality.

 

10 hours ago, Taurior said:

Like I said earlier when someone said weps are replaced in AQ: 
" I can be wrong about the weapons but to my knowledge AQ doens't have weps that beat the R14 weps, they're still a tad worse(I'd love to see which wep combo beats HWL in AQ). "

Show me.

http://db.vanillagaming.org/?item=21244

Better stats for an OH.

[Yoga 3]

1 thing i see ppl focusing is stats on the sets. Why isn't anyone talking about the set Bonus? In most cases that set bonus is one of the biggest advantage's in pvp? Stamina also help's in certain fights like C'thun where u swap some pure dps gear to some gear with dps stats + stam.

 

Overall the PVP gear should maybe update same time with Dragons of Nightmare IMO. You can always find reasons why earlier or why at naxx patch.

I think Dragons Of Nightmare would be great A) It's a huge world pvp event every week so it makes sense to have some pewpew there. B) It's between ZG and AQ and AQ is the place where you start to get EQUAL pvp gear from PVE and AQ is still hard pve content so not everyone will have that gear.

[ismeckye 7]

13 hours ago, Crixx said:

there is no real objective view on that case, i myself want to rank on fresh server as a warrior but only to rank 10 , as the gear is pretty good when updated and further ranking eats too much time i cannot even bring. that beeing said, im ok with having the "bad" blue set for a quite long time (zg patch) but waiting till naxx release? thats just stupid really, the set is totally crap and if anything a pile of stamina. old T1 would be better for pvp, you just have to see that blizz ваууed up with the itemization after all, and the time nost did update the gear was a good time, since pve'ers then got a good choice from items out of bwl and zg.

Just so you know. They plan to improve the r10 gear earlier.

[Strahl 2]

on new servers with upgraded pvp gear, pvpers simply outgear anyone else in a few weeks which is bogus.

obviously it was never inteded this way.

Edited January 5, 2017 by Strahl

[Taurior 2]

3 hours ago, Adeline said:

This isn't true. The r14 weaps are obviously stronger than any other weapons you can find in BWL but strong enough to effectively "ruin competitive play for that class"? No chance. That would then mean that dps rankings would almost purely be made out of r14 characters I suppose, since there are like 80 r14 melees on the old realm. That is not the reality.

Assuming both players have equal/close to equal skill the player with MC/BWL weps won't outdps the R14 warrior. ruin may be a bit exaggerated, but it will still hurt the competiveness of that class in the raid. only in AQ is where the PVE weapons start to come close to the R14 weps, to a point where it's not making a big difference anymore.

3 hours ago, Adeline said:

http://db.vanillagaming.org/?item=21244

Better stats for an OH.

You seem to forget that 1h are used for dual wield, meaning you use 2 weps. even IF it was better, it would only replace one wep, not both.

That aside, you will also lose 5 weapon skill, which is  equal to 0.2% less misses, more crit, less change to dodge,parry and block. but most importantly it will result in your white hits only dealing 70% dmg 40% of the time(instead of +- 85% 40% of the time). Plus the fact that it's from the armament making the chances of you getting it smaller than the other weps(although this doens't change whether it's better or not, it does mean that it's not available for many players given the low drop change and all)

Stat differences:

Spoiler

+ 1.1 DPS

-10 AP

+1 hit

If you ask me(and probably all warriors) I would take the 5 wep skill and 10 AP over 1% hit any time.

[Adeline 2]

1 hour ago, Taurior said:

If you ask me(and probably all warriors) I would take the 5 wep skill and 10 AP over 1% hit any time

All warriors aren't human/orc.

1 hour ago, Taurior said:

Assuming both players have equal/close to equal skill the player with MC/BWL weps won't outdps the R14 warrior. ruin may be a bit exaggerated, but it will still hurt the competiveness of that class in the raid. only in AQ is where the PVE weapons start to come close to the R14 weps, to a point where it's not making a big difference anymore.

Like I said, there is a difference although it's alot smaller than you're making it out to be. Do I need to link you DPS rankings and point out who is r14 and who isn't? 

[Taurior 2]

1 hour ago, Adeline said:

All warriors aren't human/orc.

Like I said, there is a difference although it's alot smaller than you're making it out to be. Do I need to link you DPS rankings and point out who is r14 and who isn't? 

The warriors/rogues who are planning to compete on the dmg in raids are most definitely human/orc.

How am I making it out to be? I'm just saying that there's no way a war with PVE weps won't beat a war with PVP weps at least pre-AQ.

Let me show you some DPS rankings: 

http://realmplayers.com/RaidStats/FightOverallOverview.aspx?FightName=Firemaw&realm=NRB R14 warrior 150 dps higher than the first non r14 war, top 5 4/5 R14

http://realmplayers.com/RaidStats/FightOverallOverview.aspx?FightName=Chromaggus&realm=NRB R14 warrior on top, 30 dps above the first non R14 warriors

http://realmplayers.com/RaidStats/FightOverallOverview.aspx?FightName=Ebonroc&realm=NRB R14 wars on top 300 dps above the first non R14(he has general gear but I assume not HWL)

http://realmplayers.com/RaidStats/FightOverallOverview.aspx?FightName=Baron Geddon&realm=NRB R14 wars on top 130 dps above the first non R14

I took fights which generally are just nuke fights, as you can see the R14 warrior's DPS can be 300 dps higher than any of the non r14 players, ofc this is not purely because of the gear but there's plenty of example where R14 warriors are #1 on the rankings, probably more than the latter. 

 

[Adeline 2]

10 minutes ago, Taurior said:

The warriors/rogues who are planning to compete on the dmg in raids are most definitely human/orc.

How am I making it out to be? I'm just saying that there's no way a war with PVE weps won't beat a war with PVP weps at least pre-AQ.

Let me show you some DPS rankings: 

http://realmplayers.com/RaidStats/FightOverallOverview.aspx?FightName=Firemaw&realm=NRB R14 warrior 150 dps higher than the first non r14 war, top 5 4/5 R14

http://realmplayers.com/RaidStats/FightOverallOverview.aspx?FightName=Chromaggus&realm=NRB R14 warrior on top, 30 dps above the first non R14 warriors

http://realmplayers.com/RaidStats/FightOverallOverview.aspx?FightName=Ebonroc&realm=NRB R14 wars on top 300 dps above the first non R14(he has general gear but I assume not HWL)

http://realmplayers.com/RaidStats/FightOverallOverview.aspx?FightName=Baron Geddon&realm=NRB R14 wars on top 130 dps above the first non R14

I took fights which generally are just nuke fights, as you can see the R14 warrior's DPS can be 300 dps higher than any of the non r14 players, ofc this is not purely because of the gear but there's plenty of example where R14 warriors are #1 on the rankings, probably more than the latter. 

 

Wow. Nice cherry picking. I can do the same:

http://realmplayers.com/RaidStats/FightOverallOverview.aspx?FightName=Vaelastrasz the Corrupt&realm=NRB

3/5 top 5 warriors not rank 14, including #1 leading by 120 dps.

http://realmplayers.com/RaidStats/FightOverallOverview.aspx?FightName=Flamegor&realm=NRB

Non r14 warrior leading by more than 100 dps #2.

http://realmplayers.com/RaidStats/FightOverallOverview.aspx?FightName=Shazzrah&realm=NRB

None of the top 3 warriors has rank 14.

http://realmplayers.com/RaidStats/FightOverallOverview.aspx?FightName=Nefarian&realm=NRB

#1 and #2 that both are more than 50 dps over #3 does not have r14.

Oh and btw. Don't even pretend that you chose those fights because they are "Nuke fights", because 3/4 you picked doesn't even qualify remotely as it. Geddon, Firemaw and Chromaggus all has mechanics that disturbs your dps. You chose them solely because they serve your purpose.

Edited January 5, 2017 by Adeline

[Taurior 2]

6 minutes ago, Adeline said:

Wow. Nice cherry picking. I can do the same:

http://realmplayers.com/RaidStats/FightOverallOverview.aspx?FightName=Vaelastrasz the Corrupt&realm=NRB

3/5 top 5 warriors not rank 14, including #1 leading by 120 dps.

http://realmplayers.com/RaidStats/FightOverallOverview.aspx?FightName=Flamegor&realm=NRB

Non r14 warrior leading by more than 100 dps #2.

http://realmplayers.com/RaidStats/FightOverallOverview.aspx?FightName=Shazzrah&realm=NRB

None of the top 3 warriors has rank 14.

http://realmplayers.com/RaidStats/FightOverallOverview.aspx?FightName=Nefarian&realm=NRB

#1 and #2 that both are more than 50 dps over #3 does not have r14.

Oh and btw. Don't even pretend that you chose those fights because they are "Nuke fights", because 3/4 you picked doesn't even qualify remotely as it. Geddon, Firemaw and Chromaggus all has mechanics that disturbs your dps. You chose them solely because they serve your purpose.

Yes, I only took the nuke fights which have R14 wars, but that's what you would have done too, only show the fights that prove your point. There are fights where one excels over the other, this depends on a lot of variables.  It's a fact that PVP weps are superior to any PVE wep pre-naxx for warriors/sword rogue(maybe dagger too, idk). You can't deny that.

How does Firemaw not classify as a nukefight for warriors? all you have to do is make sure to not die by flame buffet, which is the same for everyone.

Baron can  just be nuked down, the only downtime you have is when he does his fire inferno, where every warrior has to move away unless he is assigned a healer so he can keep nuking.

Everyone hides at the same time at chrom, other than that there's nothing to worry about, so this can also be seen as a nuke fight

Vael is a fight where you have to watch your aggro carefully, if you overaggro you can wipe a lot of raidmembers. on this fight it's all about how risky you want to play. taking more risk means dealing more damage.

Nefarian dps is dependant on whether you just nuke nef and let other dps deal with the skeletons/infernals or not.

There will always be fights where a PVE wep warrior beats a PVP wep warrior, you can't see who uses which cooldowns etc. there's also the equal skill variable, which can't be shown in plain meters. I can guarantee you those warriors who used PVE weps will would be even higher if they would have R14 weapons.

[Adeline 2]

21 minutes ago, Taurior said:

How does Firemaw not classify as a nukefight for warriors? all you have to do is make sure to not die by flame buffet, which is the same for everyone.

How could any fight where you have to stand still for 20 seconds behind a pillar to reset stacks qualify as a "nuke fight"? That's just beyond me. Kronos player logic I guess.

Anyway, all of this is beside the point. I've never denied that thay're stronger than PvE weapons, in fact, if you look at my posts I've mentioned it several times. You however have made claims that the weapons are so broken that they kill competition and makes it impossible for the ones that doesn't wield them to compete. This is what I adressed in my original post, you can look back if you can't remember. This has been proven false, by your own metric of top dps logs.

The point I'm trying to get across to you is that the difference is way smaller than you paint it up to be. You like throwing around  the "bis until naxx" phrase to put more strength into it I guess when the fact of the matter is that Naxx weapons aren't even comparable in power level because they're so much stronger. The other thing is that the difference between BWL and AQ weaponry is very slim in comparison to that between AQ and Naxx. If they were indeed so much vastly stronger than everything else available, wouldn't rank 14 warriors dominate all of the bosses? Or are they players just shit?

Edited January 5, 2017 by Adeline

[ismeckye 7]

I have to say that having weapons as soon as BWL gives back some kind of exclusiveness.
 Let me explain: Back in the day many people didnt get past Razorgore because they were too bad/ not enough gear/ whatever. So highend gear was the gear which set apart the average from the high end raider. But todays raids are comparative joke with all the knowledge, good hardware and internet and overall skill level. So everybody and their mom raids MC/ZG/BWL. AQ onwards not so much. So for me it is kind of blizzlike as it FEELS alot more like vanilla because now you have people who actually dedicated ALOT of time to the game to get the best gear possible.

MC and BWL (unitl Chromaggus) is mostly faceroll today.

Edited January 5, 2017 by ismeckye

[Taurior 2]

28 minutes ago, Adeline said:

How could any fight where you have to stand still for 20 seconds behind a pillar to reset stacks qualify as a "nuke fight"? That's just beyond me. Kronos player logic I guess.

Nuke is maybe not the best word, what I meant was that you don't have to focus on things like threat, extra units other things like focus on interrupting, that sort of stuff.

30 minutes ago, Adeline said:

Anyway, all of this is beside the point. I've never denied that thay're stronger than PvE weapons, in fact, if you look at my posts I've mentioned it several times. You however have made claims that the weapons are so broken that they kill competition and makes it impossible for the ones that doesn't wield them to compete. This is what I adressed in my original post, you can look back if you can't remember. This has been proven false, by your own metric of top dps logs.

I've already corrected myself on this in my previous post as a direct reply to your post, so why bring the original statement back up again? 

"Assuming both players have equal/close to equal skill the player with MC/BWL weps won't outdps the R14 warrior. ruin may be a bit exaggerated, but it will still hurt the competiveness of that class in the raid. only in AQ is where the PVE weapons start to come close to the R14 weps, to a point where it's not making a big difference anymore."

There's no denying that it'll hurt the competitiveness.

27 minutes ago, Adeline said:

 

The point I'm trying to get across to you is that the difference is way smaller than you paint it up to be. You like throwing around  the "bis until naxx" phrase to put more strength into it I guess when the fact of the matter is that Naxx weapons aren't even comparable in power level because they're so much stronger. The other thing is that the difference between BWL and AQ weaponry is very slim in comparison to that between AQ and Naxx. If they were indeed so much vastly stronger than everything else available, wouldn't rank 14 warriors dominate all of the bosses? Or are they players just shit?

It's BiS until naxx because they're not replaced until naxx, that litterally the definition of bis. Yes, naxx weps are a lot better, but I don't claim they're not.

I've claimed that MC weps get obliterated by R14 weps,

also that BWL weps are not close to equal to HWL weps(stated here: "Again, at the BWL patch (When the weapons are being upgraded) the R14 Weapons are not -that- much better than CTS, Maladath, etc"

I've also stated that AQ weps do not replace HWL weps(claimed here: "Weapons will get replaced in AQ40, not naxx."). I have never stated that HWL weps are a lot better than AQ weps. I even stated that AQ weps are close to HWL weps, but still are a tad worse: " I can be wrong about the weapons but to my knowledge AQ doens't have weps that beat the R14 weps, they're still a tad worse(I'd love to see which wep combo beats HWL in AQ)." 

 I get that all the posts make it hard to get everything right, but do a fact check before you assume what I point things out to be.

What I did claim:

HWL weps destroy MC weps after the update.

HWL weps beat BWL weps after the update, the difference is smaller but they're still quite a bit better.

HWL weps beat AQ weps by a tad bit.

[Taurior 2]

17 minutes ago, Wetpine said:

The rank14 grind takes months for the first HWL / GM anyway (I did it in vanilla), and by that time MC and BWL will be clear.  And if you're still progressing through them, you might have 1 rank14 in your raid at most, assuming they even want to raid.  Even then, you're assuming they'll beat you on DPS, which is already proven false from the previous logs.  And if they do then SO WHAT.

Can you please stop posting without checking facts?

You can find a list of when people got their ranks here: http://realmplayers.com/PVPList.aspx?section=highest_ranks&realm=NRB

You can find the BWL release time here: https://elysium-project.org/timeline

As you can see by the time BWL released there were already 45 rank 14 players., the first being on  2015-05-27, just before DM released.

[Adeline 2]

31 minutes ago, Taurior said:

It's BiS until naxx because they're not replaced until naxx, that litterally the definition of bis. Yes, naxx weps are a lot better, but I don't claim they're not.

I've claimed that MC weps get obliterated by R14 weps,

also that BWL weps are not close to equal to HWL weps(stated here: "Again, at the BWL patch (When the weapons are being upgraded) the R14 Weapons are not -that- much better than CTS, Maladath, etc"

I've also stated that AQ weps do not replace HWL weps(claimed here: "Weapons will get replaced in AQ40, not naxx."). I have never stated that HWL weps are a lot better than AQ weps. I even stated that AQ weps are close to HWL weps, but still are a tad worse: " I can be wrong about the weapons but to my knowledge AQ doens't have weps that beat the R14 weps, they're still a tad worse(I'd love to see which wep combo beats HWL in AQ)." 

 I get that all the posts make it hard to get everything right, but do a fact check before you assume what I point things out to be.

What I did claim:

HWL weps destroy MC weps after the update.

HWL weps beat BWL weps after the update, the difference is smaller but they're still quite a bit better.

HWL weps beat AQ weps by a tad bit.

I don't even know what you're saying anymore. I'm asking you why the r14 warriors aren't dominating all of the bosses. Now you say that "BWL weaps are not close to equal to r14" and in the same sentence "r14 weapons are not that much better". While on the last page you said that in BWL the r14 weapons make a huge difference in dps while in aq it doesn't matter much. So as you see, it's not that easy to follow your inconsistent messages. Maybe you need to do some "fact-checking" of your own.

[TheRealJindo 1]

Wetpine, you're a casual retard. Go watch damage meters of NOPE or any other high end guild. Stop wasting people's time on this topic and actually get a clue.

[Taurior 2]

4 minutes ago, Adeline said:

I don't even know what you're saying anymore. I'm asking you why the r14 warriors aren't dominating all of the bosses. Now you say that "BWL weaps are not close to equal to r14" and in the same sentence "r14 weapons are not that much better". While on the last page you said that in BWL the r14 weapons make a huge difference in dps while in aq it doesn't matter much. So as you see, it's not that easy to follow your inconsistent messages. Maybe you need to do some "fact-checking" of your own.

Where did I state that r14 weps are not that much better than BWL weps, I never said that note the quotation marks rofl, looking back I forgot to put in the closing paranthesis, but is it that hard to see the quotation marks? It's not in a quote frame because I can't seem to get quotes from other pages working.

Nothing more to say but: read before you reply, if you want I'll edit that comment and underline the quotes so you don't have to search for the quotation marks.

5 minutes ago, Wetpine said:

Makes no difference because the other arguments still stand.  Like the fact that none of those people will be in your raid and even if they were they would only help you progress.  Even the idea that they would automatically beat you on meters was proven wrong.  You literally have nothing left to support your position. 

Yeah, it makes no difference to say random shit that's not true. makes me think of how much other bullshit you're posting without knowing the facts, not gonna bother reacting to you anymore, it's pointless.

 

Good point of jindo, NOPE rank 14 warriors have been on top of the guild runs damage wise, I've checked the last few BWL runs they did and in every run the R14 warriors are above the PVE wep warriors, sometimes by a far and sometimes it doens't matter much http://realmplayers.com/RaidStats/RaidList.aspx?realm=NRB&Guild=NOPE&InstanceFilter=BWL another example is Gilnash in Dreamstate, when he raids with them he seems to be on top.

Anyway, there's always going to be examples that support one side and that support the other side. It's pointless.

 

[Adeline 2]

8 minutes ago, Taurior said:

Where did I state that r14 weps are not that much better than BWL weps, I never said that note the quotation marks rofl, looking back I forgot to put in the closing paranthesis, but is it that hard to see the quotation marks? It's not in a quote frame because I can't seem to get quotes from other pages working.

Nothing more to say but: read before you reply, if you want I'll edit that comment and underline the quotes so you don't have to search for the quotation marks.

How should I know that you aren't quoting yourself from an earlier post? Citation marks doesn't mean anything in that context. 

You still refuse to give an answer to the real question I've posed to you twice though, so I guess we're done here.

[Bourbonpie 13]

Don't even bother responding to Taurior anymore. You guys all know he has no idea what he's talking about, stop feeding the troll. He's the same type of guy who QQ'd on Blizzard forums back in the day that everything is too hard, and people that commit more time shouldn't be better than me in-game, etc. and look where retail is now. lol. Fuck this guy, he wants the casuals who raid 4 hours a week in MC/BWL to be in the same league come 1.6/17 (when the weapons are upgraded, and the gear possibly is) as the ~100-150 R14s we'll have on this server, and if Nostalrius is anything to go by, then only ~80 or so will be Rogues & Warriors. It's a small minority anyway, his argument is garbage for that reason alone. Never mind adding in the fact that all of the top DPS Warriors/Rogues on realm players on Nostalrius are not all R14. 

[TheRealJindo 1]

2 minutes ago, Bourbonpie said:

Don't even bother responding to Taurior anymore. You guys all know he has no idea what he's talking about, stop feeding the troll. He's the same type of guy who QQ'd on Blizzard forums back in the day that everything is too hard, and people that commit more time shouldn't be better than me in-game, etc. and look where retail is now. lol. Fuck this guy, he wants the casuals who raid 4 hours a week in MC/BWL to be in the same league come 1.6/17 (when the weapons are upgraded, and the gear possibly is) as the ~100-150 R14s we'll have on this server, and if Nostalrius is anything to go by, then only ~80 or so will be Rogues & Warriors. It's a small minority anyway, his argument is garbage for that reason alone. Never mind adding in the fact that all of the top DPS Warriors/Rogues on realm players on Nostalrius are not all R14. 

It's ironic you claim that Taurior is posting that things were too hard on blizzard forums, while you want r14 weapons upgraded with make PVE content easier (at least that's what you're arguing for, you may be playing devil's advocate). 

It may be a small minority in casual guilds, but in hardcore guilds you can expect a shitton of r14 melees, something I would think you would know as GM of a (apparent) hardcore guild. Again, it could be that you are arguing for the server as a whole, but that's not the context he's talking about so you're shifting the argument in that case (using a strawman).

Your last point, that not all top warriors/rogues there are r14 is correct. But if you remove r14 weapons from the R14s that are up there and claim their DPS doesn't change (which is effectively what some people here have been arguing like retards), then you must be delusional. Again, this might not be what you're claiming, but the side defending this point is clearly doing so.

Now, I am all for adding R12/13 upped gear because doing only weapons is a half-measure which makes no sense, and also my guild will have lots of high rankers and therefore I like to profit from this change. But as a decent human being (which I am not, I am self-interested here), I would have chosen for both to be upped at Naxx (because the MAJORITY of the server won't be able to get r14).