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Huntardsrise

Lupos banned from raids?

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Sup huntards, how is the Lupos problem getting handled in your raids?

Since he correctly does shadow damage now, our warlocks started to complain that he is lowering their dps (the raid dps) by consuming their improved sb stacks.

 

Are you raiding with Lupos?

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20 minutes ago, Huntardsrise said:

Sup huntards....

I think it's doubtful a huntard would care.

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2 hours ago, Huntardsrise said:

Sup huntards, how is the Lupos problem getting handled in your raids?

Since he correctly does shadow damage now, our warlocks started to complain that he is lowering their dps (the raid dps) by consuming their improved sb stacks.

 

Are you raiding with Lupos?

He doesn't consume improved shadowbolt stacks afaik. Your warlocks are using him as an excuse for underperforming

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3 hours ago, Ironsides said:

He doesn't consume improved shadowbolt stacks afaik.

I wouldn't purport to know for sure one way or the other, but by reading the talent, it seems to me it would make sense if Lupos's attacks did consume Improved Shadow Bolt.

The talent specifically says "Increases Shadow damage dealt to the target by X% until 4 non-periodic damage sources are applied." I'd think that would include Lupos.

Now here's the real question: does it really matter?

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Wah!  The DPS that I was gonna do was being done by a Hunter Pet!  Oh woe is my lost DPS!

The damage is still happening and getting done by the raid so it's not like the encounters are taking longer ... but the CREDIT for actually DOING that DPS isn't accruing to those Warlocks anymore, making it look like they're slacking on the DPS meter(s).

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4 hours ago, FullRetard said:

Yeah no, it's for a certain number of hits, so 4 Lupos autoattacks for 100 each is definitely less than 4 shadowbolts for 1000 each

well look at this geography major with his math division

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20 hours ago, FullRetard said:

Yeah no, it's for a certain number of hits, so 4 Lupos autoattacks for 100 each is definitely less than 4 shadowbolts for 1000 each

Unless any of those stacks are wasted by said Shadow Bolt then critting and reapplying the buff, and Lupos's ability to more frequently consume the charges of the debuff would result in more overall damage for the raid.

You also have to consider the amount of DPS that a hunter would gain from having their pet totally ignore armor. Just food for thought.

Edited by Fisher

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Between Sunder Armor x5, Faerie Fire, and Curse of Recklessness.....Most bosses shouldn't really have any armor left.  So I think the pet dealing shadow damage to get past armor is redundant.  Now, his damage should be boosted by Curse of Shadow, so there's a plus.  I think you'd need to dig through a combat log to really determine whether the pet eating through the imp shadow bolt is hurting or not.  And we're likely talking about just a single pet, what happens when you have multiple Lupos pets within a raid?

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7 hours ago, Drakbak said:

Between Sunder Armor x5, Faerie Fire, and Curse of Recklessness.....Most bosses shouldn't really have any armor left.  So I think the pet dealing shadow damage to get past armor is redundant.

Fair enough. That depends on the boss, though, doesn't it?

7 hours ago, Drakbak said:

I think you'd need to dig through a combat log to really determine whether the pet eating through the imp shadow bolt is hurting or not.

I agree. People (warlocks) are going to see their DPS going down because Improved Shadow Bolt is consumed by Lupos and think it's bad for the raid without ever considering the possibility of Lupos being a raid-wide DPS gain.

7 hours ago, Drakbak said:

And we're likely talking about just a single pet, what happens when you have multiple Lupos pets within a raid?

Same thing that happens normally. The stacks get consumed faster. I imagine the debuff wouldn't last more than a second if you had more than one Lupos in the raid. At the very least, you'd ensure none of those stacks are wasted. Every Shadow Bolt crit would provide the full benefit of Improved Shadow Bolt.

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On 30/01/2017 at 1:09 AM, Roxanne Flowers said:

Wah!  The DPS that I was gonna do was being done by a Hunter Pet!  Oh woe is my lost DPS!

The damage is still happening and getting done by the raid so it's not like the encounters are taking longer ... but the CREDIT for actually DOING that DPS isn't accruing to those Warlocks anymore, making it look like they're slacking on the DPS meter(s).

 

On 30/01/2017 at 6:13 AM, Fisher said:

Unless any of those stacks are wasted by said Shadow Bolt then critting and reapplying the buff, and Lupos's ability to more frequently consume the charges of the debuff would result in more overall damage for the raid.

You also have to consider the amount of DPS that a hunter would gain from having their pet totally ignore armor. Just food for thought.

lmao these posts are satire right?

Bringing Lupos to raids is a huge loss to raid dps. There is no way that a pet doing 20 more damage is better than a shadowbolt doing 200-400 more damage.

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17 hours ago, Fisher said:

Same thing that happens normally. The stacks get consumed faster. I imagine the debuff wouldn't last more than a second if you had more than one Lupos in the raid. At the very least, you'd ensure none of those stacks are wasted. Every Shadow Bolt crit would provide the full benefit of Improved Shadow Bolt.

The debuff doesn't pretty static dps gains (like +20 damage per shadow hit), it scales.  Lupos hits for what....200 damage a strike?  So if it consumes all stacks by itself, it's gaining 200*20%*4 = 160 damage.  Let's say a warlock's normal shadow bolt hits for 1000....  1 hit on the debuff will gain 200 damage, which is far more than the gains seen from Lupos using up all 4 stacks.  If stacks are being "wasted" it's because it got refreshed by a warlock's crit, not because it wears off after 12 seconds.  If that same warlock crits for 2000 on the first stack on Imp Shadow Bolt, 3 stacks are "wasted", but he got an extra 400 damage.  Lupos eating the extra charges makes zero sense.

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12 hours ago, Drakbak said:

If stacks are being "wasted" it's because it got refreshed by a warlock's crit, not because it wears off after 12 seconds.

If the warlock crits on the first stack, he gains 400 damage, but the stacks remain at 4. Effectively, if we assume Lupos had consumed the remaining charges, that's 120 damage that didn't happen. I'm just saying that if the warlock is critting and wasting stacks by resetting them to 4 each time, then it doesn't matter if there's a Lupos consuming the rest.

Obviously warlocks aren't going to crit with every Shadow Bolt, but with several warlocks, it's bound to happen enough to justify bringing Lupos. Ideally, you'd want to balance the frequency of Shadow Bolt crits with the number of Lupos attacks going out. If every hunter had Lupos, it might be too frequent, such that no warlock would ever get a Shadow Bolt boosted by the debuff. That's obviously bad.

It's a bit like energy capping, in a sense. If you aren't using your abilities, every time your energy regens, it's "wasted." That energy could have been spent and then regenerated. Similarly, those stacks of Improved Shadow Bolt could have been consumed, but they were not.

And to be perfectly honest, I have no idea if it's a raid-wide DPS loss or gain either way. There are some folks -- *cough* Guybrush *cough* -- who just want to assume that the bigger number is obviously better for the raid without considering the complexities of the situation.

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10 hours ago, Fisher said:

If the warlock crits on the first stack, he gains 400 damage, but the stacks remain at 4. Effectively, if we assume Lupos had consumed the remaining charges, that's 120 damage that didn't happen. I'm just saying that if the warlock is critting and wasting stacks by resetting them to 4 each time, then it doesn't matter if there's a Lupos consuming the rest.

Obviously warlocks aren't going to crit with every Shadow Bolt, but with several warlocks, it's bound to happen enough to justify bringing Lupos. Ideally, you'd want to balance the frequency of Shadow Bolt crits with the number of Lupos attacks going out. If every hunter had Lupos, it might be too frequent, such that no warlock would ever get a Shadow Bolt boosted by the debuff. That's obviously bad.

It's a bit like energy capping, in a sense. If you aren't using your abilities, every time your energy regens, it's "wasted." That energy could have been spent and then regenerated. Similarly, those stacks of Improved Shadow Bolt could have been consumed, but they were not.

And to be perfectly honest, I have no idea if it's a raid-wide DPS loss or gain either way. There are some folks -- *cough* Guybrush *cough* -- who just want to assume that the bigger number is obviously better for the raid without considering the complexities of the situation.

The only way your logic works is when the warlocks are critting at such a high rate that it's impossible for Lupos to ever exhaust the stacks on the boss.  Otherwise, even 1 shadowbolt without the debuff (assuming it was consumed by Lupos instead) is a dps loss for the raid.  Using my example, Lupos would have to consume about 10 otherwise wasted stacks of the debuff to equal 1 shadowbolt (non-crit).  Even if this was possible on average, it doesn't take into account unlucky streaks where the locks just don't crit and the debuff wears off, effectively granting a dps loss anyway.

Assuming Lupos benefits from Curse of Shadow as well, and normal attacks hit for 200, which is probably high, you're gaining at best 32 dps (2.0 attack spd).  Maybe a little more if Bite is also considered Shadow Dmg.  This is a best case scenario assuming every attack is buffed by Imp Shadow Bolt, and every attack hits (which won't happen because pets don't get +hit, plus have to deal with dodge/block/parry).  The inverse of this is that he consumes enough stacks that at least 1 warlock misses out on improved shadow bolt each cast, which is a 80 dps loss (also ignoring hit rate, but raid warlocks have access to hit gear).  This isn't even a worst case scenario.

To me, the "benefits" don't outweigh the costs, even in ideal situations.

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5 hours ago, Morathe said:

So is he even consuming those stacks? Cuz I heard not. In that case you're just trash talking boys. 

Link me something that says he doesn't or else you're just adding to the pile.

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3 hours ago, Drakbak said:

Link me something that says he doesn't or else you're just adding to the pile.

Check this thread. Some other dude said that and every1 ignored him. I heard from guildie hunters its bugged and doesn't take those stacks, same as deathbringer and other weapons that proc shadow dmg. 

Anyway going to test it myself in 5 minutes. 

 

Edited by Morathe

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3 hours ago, Drakbak said:

To me, the "benefits" don't outweigh the costs, even in ideal situations.

Good points. I suppose you are correct. Like I said, I don't know one way or the other, and I like to think about the possibilities.

Only way to know for sure is to test it, and it's difficult to accurately assess whether the raid lost or gained DPS as a result of Lupos being used because of how much numbers can vary even when controlling for all controllable variables.

Is there a SimulationCraft for vanilla? Haha. Seems like it would be far more important in vanilla than it would be in retail.

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Tested lupos with warlock yesterday on elite mobs same level as my lupos (41 at that time). Results are as follows:

-Lupos benefit from Curse of Shadows

-Lupos benefit from Improved Shadowbolt proc

-Lupos DONT consume Impr. Shadowbolt stacks

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So Warlocks are whining about Lupos for No Good Reason™?  The Improved Shadow Bolt procs are instead being stolen by OTHER WARLOCKS and the Shadow Priest(s)?

Good to know ...

Okay, new rule.  Bring 1 Warlock and scads of Hunters with Lupos to every raid.

Edited by Roxanne Flowers

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9 minutes ago, Roxanne Flowers said:

So Warlocks are whining about Lupos for No Good Reason™?  The Improved Shadow Bolt procs are instead being stolen by OTHER WARLOCKS and the Shadow Priest(s)?

Good to know ...

Okay, new rule.  Bring 1 Warlock and scads of Hunters with Lupos to every raid.

Yes if u got whining warlock feel free to invite him to test it on servant of XXX mob in blasted lands.. the one that can't die and prove him wrong, confident of ur claim. Don't worry cause u'll win and make him look like a scrub:P

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