RESERVE RUNS

[taladril 43]

The real problem is that OP is undead rogue #35821 who's having a hard time getting gear because he only realized at 60 that he's not a special snowflake and now needs to work extra hard to get the gear to get into raiding guilds.

[behemothdog 4]

1 minute ago, taladril said:

The real problem is that OP is undead rogue #35821 who's having a hard time getting gear because he only realized at 60 that he's not a special snowflake and now needs to work extra hard to get the gear to get into raiding guilds.

And there better be enchants on that gear!

[taladril 43]

Along the same lines. The number of times I see people say stuff like, why isn't anyone starting a group for dungeon x? Well maybe YOU should be that person and actually take charge and lead. Get the ball rolling and the content will come to you. If you passively let it happen and grab what you can find don't be mad that someone else is doing everything they can to optimize themself.

[Zyfire 2]

21 hours ago, Twilight Sparkle said:

Good luck filling a raid when you reserve something since you risk alienating an entire class or role. You can sometimes get lucky with instances and reserve Cape of the Black Baron just fine and do it with casters. If you reserve Striker's Mark, good luck having no rogues or warriors that run if they think it'll drop. Likewise, good luck finding people in a PuG who either have that item already, or don't want it this early into the server.

 

Though if you decide to reserve a tier piece, or any of the actual items at the end you might have a lot of people not even remotely interested. More so when AV comes and the raid drops actual loot like Perdition's, CHT, Brutality Blade, OEB, Leaf/Eye. If you want to "reserve" an item out of a raid the best way to do that is stockpile gold and make a GDKP run and pray it fills. This becomes most effective after AQ release because most guilds don't allocate raid days to MC and their members just end up pugging it for either fun, or to try and get their items after a year. I think on Warsong (Feenix) a majority of the raids held were GDKP runs that tended to be filled with pretty geared people just out for gold and GDKP runs are a really nice money maker when people have gold to drop. Saw a Perdition's in a pug MC there go for 6k. Payout of 150g to each individual off that one item alone.

 

For example I saw a pug MC trying to fill last week and the leader had all the BoEs on reserve. I added him to friends to keep tabs and I don't think his run actually filled.

I mean, you do make valid points, but they're really nothing to worry about. I play on Anathem and EVERY single run has something reserved. Every MC run reserves bindings and all BOEs. Every Ony run reserves/sells head & bag and usually Vi'skag. That's just how it goes, the raids do fill because people are to lazy to make their own raids, which is exactly why I don't think reserving a few items is bad because organizing and hosting a raid of 40 people is not something everyone wants/can do.

[Mahtan 15]

There is a lot of bashing against the OP, but he clearly says that he has no problem with people reserving things personally and just avoids these runs. He just wanted to point out that it is questionable regarding the social aspect of the game. And do you really want to argue against that? >.<

If someone does his 100th BRD for Ironfoe, he can just communicate that and people will agree to pass. But only joining for a run if everyone else agrees to pass is selfish and childish if you ask me.

I also see a lot of runs with recipes on reserve, like Flask of Titans or Flask of Destilled Wisdom. I even see reserved Orbs or reserved Beast Ace. Many things that are needed by potentially more than one person are on reserve and that's where things get antisocial.

 

tl;dr: WoW: Legion and Diablo III are great games for people who want their stuff to be reserved, you should try them out and never come back! :P

Edited February 27, 2017 by Mahtan

[ztrapoon 0]

Running an instance for a 5% drop or worse even, only to see some guy who's been shit, semi-afk or rude the entire dungeon roll for it and win - is not a very pleasant feeling. Even if they're cool, they might be the sort of guy who decides "nah gonna play on X instead" or "druid is not fun, gonna level my mage now" the next day.

So if it boils down to making people like you a little disappointed - or not getting the item if it drops, people will choose the former no matter what you say.

 

If you want social find players to befriend, or a nice guild. But when it comes to loot in pugs, it's a dog-eat-dog world my friend.

 

 

Edited February 27, 2017 by ztrapoon

[Divine88 0]

Doesn't really matter in the long run. You'll be stuck in MC for the next couple months and have plenty of time to gear any character. Anyone reserving shit is trying to effectively make others work for his progress. Just because you ran an instance 20x and someone won the roll over you doesn't mean you deserve it more. It happens on both ends of the spectrum, at some point you're going to have to wait. The people who reserve shit are the same type of people who rage quit when they lose their favorite item in a DKP bid after waiting a month for it to drop. Instant gratification isn't the name of the game and everything comes with patience. Everyone needs upgrades at this point in the game and I constantly people reserving shit they don't necessarily need ASAP over certain classes.....Blackcrow? Dal Rends? The people that do this are the same ones that watched other people reserve items so they feel entitled to the item themselves. Even if you have a retard in your group, his time is somehow less valuable than yours? Lots of Dunning-Kruger going on here.

[kastle 4]

1 hour ago, Divine88 said:

Doesn't really matter in the long run. You'll be stuck in MC for the next couple months and have plenty of time to gear any character. Anyone reserving shit is trying to effectively make others work for his progress. Just because you ran an instance 20x and someone won the roll over you doesn't mean you deserve it more. It happens on both ends of the spectrum, at some point you're going to have to wait. The people who reserve shit are the same type of people who rage quit when they lose their favorite item in a DKP bid after waiting a month for it to drop. Instant gratification isn't the name of the game and everything comes with patience. Everyone needs upgrades at this point in the game and I constantly people reserving shit they don't necessarily need ASAP over certain classes.....Blackcrow? Dal Rends? The people that do this are the same ones that watched other people reserve items so they feel entitled to the item themselves. Even if you have a retard in your group, his time is somehow less valuable than yours? Lots of Dunning-Kruger going on here.

the whole 'ive run this x amount of times so i just want my item' argument always makes me laugh. THATS THE POINT OF THE GAME, run shit a bunch of times until you get what you want. farm for hours until you have enough gold/mats for what you want. otherwise every item would drop off every boss or you could handpick your rewards after x amount of tries (hi badge of justice). 

someone pointed out that the mysticism of doing all these dungeons for the first time is gone, so now people just want get as quick as possible so they can clear content, which i understand but would still say, you're playing during the wrong patch. 

[rikkisix 0]

Helping random people who aren't greatful get's tiring affer awhile, I had to raid lead a few pugs of guilds and only wanted the ZG shield, explaining figths. Teaching others how to tank, only to lose it over and over again. Not that i would mind if they where  guilds or something,  But random guilds who don't know fights and rely on rando tank with barely anything above some MC and pre raid slashed on? For shame, But it's also my fault for not saying shit (Even when i did it's my fault for not demmanding leader.) You do a stressful job, you can normally break the rules. When you lead others normally follow, reserves or no. Personally i use to be against it, but so many people do it on Pservers and such it's too common, and it's nice to see T2 geared guilds pug just because. Allowing others who are stuck in the gap of pre-raid (Because they can't make time for the raids) to get brought in. Beats those... What was it? Gold bid runs, and such? that's for sure.

[Skinnylatte 2]

Another topic of false controversy. 

I played retail in vanilla and items were certainly reserved in runs. Not every group. I do remember them being advertised. This server is also far denser than any retail server. More messages, more people looking, more realistic to pug these days in general. 

If you don't agree with it, you don't join. Simple as that.

If you want to go to this or that group being advertised and don't need or want this thing being reserved, it doesn't matter. 

If you are competing directly for a specific item, and are upset that there is another group someone within your purview and you just can't abide it, that is a ridiculous mentality. Make another group. Find another group. What difference does it make to you? Grow up. This is exactly the same kind of complaining that these people who cry about pvp happening. It's the dungeon crawler version. 
 

[gotmilk0112 10]

4 hours ago, Mahtan said:

WoW: Legion and Diablo III are great games for people who want their stuff to be reserved

You can't reserve items in pugs anymore, you dingdong. If the group is not a guild group, it forces Personal Loot.

[Mahtan 15]

33 minutes ago, gotmilk0112 said:

You can't reserve items in pugs anymore, you dingdong. If the group is not a guild group, it forces Personal Loot.

And personal loot is the consequence if you don't want the social aspect of loot distribution at all. Legion dungeons with public groups are fully Personal Loot. And Diablo III also killed the feature of social loot distribution that Diablo II had.

In Diablo II people are encouraged to interact with each other to create fair loot rules. People /flist other people who they had a good experience with. That was nessessary to some degree, especially if you didn't play a melee built or a character with teleportation. Diablo III just killed this dynamic all together!

I hope you dingdong throwing milkguy can follow me, but the point is that Diablo II and Classic WoW have loot mechanics that actually encourage people to talk to each other to improve their chances to get something they really need. Diablo III and Legion are actively working against that dynamic outside of very specific scenarios.

You can use my argumentation to conclude, that people can of course reserve items when they search for people in /world. This is not per se a problem. The problem is that the amount of reserve runs is quite ridiculous from time to time. And this is a testament to the antisocial mentality of the playerbase. Congratulations!

Edited February 28, 2017 by Mahtan

[gotmilk0112 10]

24 minutes ago, Mahtan said:

And personal loot is the consequence if you don't want the social aspect at all.

...No, it was to solve cries of ninja looting.

Quote

In Diablo II people are encouraged to interact with each other to create fair loot rules.

What the fuck D2 were you playing that had "loot rules" ? I played D2 for years, during 2003-2007, and never heard of any loot rules. How do you even do "loot rules" in a game where every item just drops on the ground and is free-for-all?

Quote

The problem is that the amount of reserve runs is quite ridiculous from time to time.

I almost never see reserve runs on Darrowshire.

Edited February 28, 2017 by gotmilk0112

[behemothdog 4]

29 minutes ago, gotmilk0112 said:

I almost never see reserve runs on Darrowshire.

Darrowshire player here. Can confirm. 

49 minutes ago, Mahtan said:

And this is a testament to the antisocial mentality of the playerbase. Congratulations!

It's not antisocial, it's an honest loot policy. Before the run even starts you know it is a reserved item and other players do hop in to do the run. They might not want the item, or in some cases they just don't have an issue helping someone get that shiny they want.

[Mahtan 15]

39 minutes ago, gotmilk0112 said:

...No, it was to solve cries of ninja looting.

What the fuck D2 were you playing that had "loot rules" ? I played D2 for years, during 2003-2007, and never heard of any loot rules. How do you even do "loot rules" in a game where every item just drops on the ground and is free-for-all?

I almost never see reserve runs on Darrowshire.

I guess I am answering a troll, but I guess one last try to explain you my point is ok...

Dear gotmilk0112, thank you for reading my post.

I played D2 for years too, I even got a first lvl 99 ladder trapse in one of the earlier LoD-ladders. It's nice to see that you love the game! Please give me a moment to explain my point. Of course, Diablo II has no loot rules. It is anarchic and celebrates freedom! It creates a rule vacuum and players can create their own loot rules. To create loot rules, you had to built a group of friends who are ok with rules.

For example if you did Baal runs with 8 people at the beginning of a ladder and without a bot, you talked to each other how to distribute unique items. For example as Round Robin for jewelery, so that every person gets the chance to identify their desired Stone of Jordan (or whatever).

Another example is, that you form a group with some friends. When you find something great for a sorc, but you play a necro, you can give it to your friend ingame. He is not offline? No problem, wait until he is and give it to him. (This is not possible in Diablo III anymore btw.)

Sharing your item wealth in Diablo II was part of the social aspect, as well as the trading aspect. This does not exist in Diablo III. But you also don't have to work to find groups where you get your guaranteed loot. In Diablo II you were actively searching for friends to make closed runs where you were not stressed to ninja everything, because you knew people will share the stuff that is good for you (or everyone). It is a social mini game, a meta game, a game in the game.

 

And Classic WoW is very very similar. You can share your "bind on equip" blue items with your friends. You can form groups and arrange terms for item drops, just like you are in Diablo II. You want ironfoe? I don't need it for my built, go ahead! You need the flask recipe? Well lets both roll our dices. I lost? No problem, because dungeons and playing the game is actually fun for me *lol*

Ok gotmilk0112, did you get my point? Diablo II uses a loot vacuum and creates the desire for players to arrange terms with their friends for item drops. WoW Classic encourages people to find friends to enjoy ninjaing-free dungeon runs and to coordinate a fair item distribution. Diablo III and WoD/Legion removed this social aspect almost alltogether, it is the evolution of modern MMORPGs. You say it "solve(s) cries of ninja looting". That is right, but I argue that there are no tears, because the whole procedure is emotionless and no longer socially driven. What a pitty, if you ask me...

I can only speak for Darrowshire horde and there I observed around 50 reserve runs since relaunch in total. The last phase was the high demand for Ace of Beasts since BWL launch. Most priests and druids love that trinket and many of them thought it is nessessary to reserve it to prevent ninja-looting. I understand that and even helped 1 priest as tank to get it. But I think it is the poorest way to solve the ninja-looting problem. Instead of searching for people with reserved items, you should better communicate what you want and ask if it's ok that people pass for you. I argue that it works in 95% of these cases :P

 

Well, I hope that clarified my points. ~.~

Edited February 28, 2017 by Mahtan

[behemothdog 4]

12 minutes ago, Mahtan said:

Instead of searching for people with reserved items, you should better communicate what you want and ask if it's ok that people pass for you.

That's exactly what calling a reserve accomplishes tho. The people ok with passing on the loot for you are the ones who join reserve runs in the 1st place. Advertising that concept beforehand is all "LFM dungeon [super shiny dagger of stabby stab] reserved" does vs waiting until every one shows and asking 'can you pass on it for me'. It's just another way to set loot rules beforehand. 

Like I said, its upfront and honest.

Edited February 28, 2017 by behemothdog

[Mahtan 15]

I would never ask strangers to pass though, only friends.

I don't want a server wide reputation as greedy prick. lol

Edited February 28, 2017 by Mahtan

[behemothdog 4]

9 minutes ago, Mahtan said:

I would never ask strangers to pass though, only friends.

I don't want a server wide reputation as greedy prick. lol

As long as you don't NEED everything you can, that won't happen. I don't think I have ever seen anyone publicly shamed for asking if they can have an item. When you don't ask it's another story.  Now asking for a BOE to go to you as an upgrade, you had better equip it as soon as you have it or people start to assume you are just a greedy liar. Seen people just abandoned for not putting it on right then and there. 

Edited February 28, 2017 by behemothdog

[ZanathKariashi 0]

I don't mind reserves as long as they're clearly stated at the beginning, so I can know if the run is gonna have the chance of getting something I need myself.

There were reserve runs all the time back in vanilla on our server and I did a number myself if i was looking for a specific piece and the potential for another user to roll on it was there.

As long as the initial loot rules are followed and no one ML ninjas some non-reserved loot, it's 100% fine and dandy as far as I'm concerned.

They're limiting their pool of potential party mates by posting their reserve up front, which means it may take longer to get the group together then if everything was free-roll and that's fine. That's the downside of reserving and the only downside it needs.

[Undertanker 88]

I have been after Gyth's Skull of Nature resist dating back to a month pre-shut down.  I have every MC item, I have every BWL item except DFT as it I am not to the point of taking over DPS until we get more to drop.

Since I've been running UBRS full runs and or Rend/JED *(solo tanking) in March 2016, I have done 101 runs were I killed Rend if not beyond.   I have not seen that helm drop.

I ensure that helm is reserved for me.  Does that make me an asshole / greedy prick / countless other names dropped by the <10 posters that compare to retail where loot is already restricted systematically?

About 3/4 of my runs are only Jed/Rend.  I have the key and I clear it FAST.   So I am helping 9 people each run get TS Shoulders, Briar Reed, Felstriker (saw 4 drop), Del'rends, Plate Bracers, Carapse (Saw 2), and other gear.

75 x 9 people - 675 people that got a lot of help, regardless of their gear, performance, countless ass pulling from level 57-59s and low level hunter pets.  I am helping them get Pre-Bis, they are helping me complete my NR set.  I'm not losing that helm when I finally see it to a fury in greens / blues that probably will never see AQ40 (if we ever see it).

Its insurance that some MS DPS warrior doesn't shaft me, or somebody roll need to vendor it.  

[Jeetee 2]

19 minutes ago, Undertanker said:

I have been after Gyth's Skull of Nature resist dating back to a month pre-shut down.  I have every MC item, I have every BWL item except DFT as it I am not to the point of taking over DPS until we get more to drop.

Since I've been running UBRS full runs and or Rend/JED *(solo tanking) in March 2016, I have done 101 runs were I killed Rend if not beyond.   I have not seen that helm drop.

I ensure that helm is reserved for me.  Does that make me an asshole / greedy prick / countless other names dropped by the <10 posters that compare to retail where loot is already restricted systematically?

About 3/4 of my runs are only Jed/Rend.  I have the key and I clear it FAST.   So I am helping 9 people each run get TS Shoulders, Briar Reed, Felstriker (saw 4 drop), Del'rends, Plate Bracers, Carapse (Saw 2), and other gear.

75 x 9 people - 675 people that got a lot of help, regardless of their gear, performance, countless ass pulling from level 57-59s and low level hunter pets.  I am helping them get Pre-Bis, they are helping me complete my NR set.  I'm not losing that helm when I finally see it to a fury in greens / blues that probably will never see AQ40 (if we ever see it).

Its insurance that some MS DPS warrior doesn't shaft me, or somebody roll need to vendor it.  

Pretty much this.  Players have their reasons.

[Storfan 24]

10 hours ago, arucado said:

Reserving has a point.

If you need only 1 item from a dungeon you've done many times, i see no reason to take someone who need another item different than yours and everyone gets what he wants if it drops (happyness for everybody).

What is sad is to farm some items which drop 1/10 runs, and when it drops you lose it. Reserving runs is just a way to make dungeons smoother.

However reserving money (this means righteous orb, flask recipes, mounts etc...) is retarded and selfish as fuck. Something that the whole party would use shouldnt be reserved.

What is your opinion of tanks selling tanking as a service then? I ask because this is my most efficient way of farming gold as prot. I'm currently full BiS geared from current content, the only item I still need is Geddon binding to complete TF. I tank alot of 5mans every day in exchange for payment, is this immoral? Considering the alternative is no run at all being done, people not getting their items, looking for a tank for hours in worldchat. I can only speak of my own personal experience but I'd say 99% of the attendees of my boost/carry-runs have been very satisfied with the quick and silk smooth clears I've been able to provide.

10 hours ago, behemothdog said:

And there better be enchants on that gear!

I'm not sure if that's a poor attempt at sarcasm. I would argue that anyone wanting to set foot into any raid should atleast do the other attendees of the raid the courtesy of bringing fully enchanted pre-raid bis gear.

8 hours ago, Divine88 said:

Doesn't really matter in the long run. You'll be stuck in MC for the next couple months and have plenty of time to gear any character. Anyone reserving shit is trying to effectively make others work for his progress. Just because you ran an instance 20x and someone won the roll over you doesn't mean you deserve it more. It happens on both ends of the spectrum, at some point you're going to have to wait. The people who reserve shit are the same type of people who rage quit when they lose their favorite item in a DKP bid after waiting a month for it to drop. Instant gratification isn't the name of the game and everything comes with patience. Everyone needs upgrades at this point in the game and I constantly people reserving shit they don't necessarily need ASAP over certain classes.....Blackcrow? Dal Rends? The people that do this are the same ones that watched other people reserve items so they feel entitled to the item themselves. Even if you have a retard in your group, his time is somehow less valuable than yours? Lots of Dunning-Kruger going on here.

So you're saying a full t2 tank, hosting a community PUG to MC every week with all the work and organization that it entails doesnt deserve Bindings more than a common pleb?

[behemothdog 4]

Just now, Storfan said:

I'm not sure if that's a poor attempt at sarcasm. I would argue that anyone wanting to set foot into any raid should atleast do the other attendees of the raid the courtesy of bringing fully enchanted pre-raid bis gear.

I have booted guildies for not having chants by raid time. I wont Demand all BIS, cuz I get that it can be a pain to get that, but enchants are an easier fix. That does not mean show up in objectively bad gear. 

IMO It shows a lack effort in just getting ready. If you can't even be ready and on time, I don't want you anywhere near my raid. 

[Storfan 24]

1 hour ago, Undertanker said:

I have been after Gyth's Skull of Nature resist dating back to a month pre-shut down.  I have every MC item, I have every BWL item except DFT as it I am not to the point of taking over DPS until we get more to drop.

Since I've been running UBRS full runs and or Rend/JED *(solo tanking) in March 2016, I have done 101 runs were I killed Rend if not beyond.   I have not seen that helm drop.

I ensure that helm is reserved for me.  Does that make me an asshole / greedy prick / countless other names dropped by the <10 posters that compare to retail where loot is already restricted systematically?

About 3/4 of my runs are only Jed/Rend.  I have the key and I clear it FAST.   So I am helping 9 people each run get TS Shoulders, Briar Reed, Felstriker (saw 4 drop), Del'rends, Plate Bracers, Carapse (Saw 2), and other gear.

75 x 9 people - 675 people that got a lot of help, regardless of their gear, performance, countless ass pulling from level 57-59s and low level hunter pets.  I am helping them get Pre-Bis, they are helping me complete my NR set.  I'm not losing that helm when I finally see it to a fury in greens / blues that probably will never see AQ40 (if we ever see it).

Its insurance that some MS DPS warrior doesn't shaft me, or somebody roll need to vendor it.  

I did the exact same thing when I was farming my AQ-NR gear, luckily I got my helm after 20-or-so runs. I would either solo-tank and make sure to reserve it, or duo-tank and simply talk it thru with the other warriors of the raid, most where happy to pass on it in exchange of having a over-the-top geared tank carrying the raid.

[Kazuma 11]

Sort of a depiction where society is going. People are becoming more and more egocentric.