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Snide

Snide's END GAME MT TPS Guide for EXPERIENCED Tanks

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On 7.5.2017 at 7:09 PM, Undertanker said:

@Mods 
Just because it says guide doesn't make it sticky worthy.  A lot of incorrect information given, and this will now cause more bad specced new tanks.

Here is  a Guide which is also filled with lot of incorrect information given with loads of bad spec tanks, but still is different point of view m8, Sometime we gotta accept that.

https://forum.elysium-project.org/topic/36966-a-guide-to-paladin-tanking-3132006-by-krynn/

You see it is still sticky there.

/Kind regards Killerduki

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Revenge > Shield Slam > Revenge (Shield Block proced) > Sunder > Heroic Strike

This is tanking 101 (though use both if you got the rage for it)

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17 hours ago, Snide said:

I also will have around ~13k hp when I'm tanking in BWL for this type of style. 

Lol this guy... please literally explain to me how are you going to have 13k HP in BWL without ZG buff and spirit of zanza.

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14 hours ago, Garun said:

Revenge > Shield Slam > Revenge (Shield Block proced) > Sunder > Heroic Strike

This is tanking 101 (though use both if you got the rage for it)

Well, sort of.

Shieldslam is your TOP threat ability and should always be used if rage allows to.

Revenge is your top threat-PER-rage ability.

The situation dictates which is your best option at any given moment, and that may vary.

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2 hours ago, Cornholi said:

Lol this guy... please literally explain to me how are you going to have 13k HP in BWL without ZG buff and spirit of zanza.

You'll have to wait like ~6 months for me to get the gear and make video part 2! 

 

16 hours ago, Garun said:

Revenge > Shield Slam > Revenge (Shield Block proced) > Sunder > Heroic Strike

This is tanking 101 (though use both if you got the rage for it)

This guide isn't tanking 101 stick to that stuff before you're ready for big boy tactics. 

 

Its worth mentioning that parry is the best avoidance mechanic for TPS.

I cant agree on your lack of points in Toughness. I checked with the treat formula and i would personally have to lower my armor with about 14,2% before i gain 1 more ragepoint for each unmitigated hit.

You don't need to take the full amount of damage to gain the additional point of rage! Even a point every other or even once in every ten swings is more tps than not. You also don't understand that you're harming your healers position on realmplayers by purposely taking less (non-lethal) damage. You've already deduced the extra armor doesn't reduce damage by a lot, why HURT your HEALERS Realmplayers ambitions?

 

The best avoidance mechanic for TPS is no avoidance, you'll always get more TPS out of the rage than a hasted auto or two with any weapon, even more-so when legitimately half the hits will be crushes or crits because you're trying to avoid shield blocking unless revenge isn't up! It's 2017, start sitting down when a boss swings at you.

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27 minutes ago, Snide said:

You'll have to wait like ~6 months for me to get the gear and make video part 2! 

OK fair enough, what is your rationale for using Alcor's though? Is it because the fights last such little time and you want to dump your 100 rage as fast as possible?

 

Edit: Ehh, never mind what I just said, I just saw the end of your video LMAO

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On ‎2017‎-‎05‎-‎07 at 7:09 PM, Undertanker said:

Impale vs 8/5/38 spec is about a 3% to 4% dps difference depending on buffs.  Not not a 4% threat difference, just damage. The difference in threat is much smaller. When rage gains were broken and you spammed Heroic Strike with a 1.3 speed, impale was much better.  That is no longer the case.  It is much better to spec with all your def/mitigation talents in the prot tree and use more hit/agil/crit gear as needed on a situational bases.

Comments like this makes me furious. First of all this guide is only for people who knows ALL the basics and are solely pointed towards those who wants to compete on realmplayers. This asshat here is claiming that first of all that impale is a 4% dps difference!? 20% increased damage on your crits is only 3-4% DPS? how fucking bad at math are you. Secondly 4% dps difference not a 4% threat difference........... There is a fucking 1.495 multiplier on every point of damage you deal in defensive stance with the defiance talent which means that every point of damage is 1.495 threat. so 4 dps is MORE then 4tps

And then you claimed that parrying a attack gives you more rage then getting hit by a boss? Ooh lordy that reset in auto attack swing will never net you much rage compared to getting crushing blowed by the boss or partially blocking the attack or just a ordinary auto attack. I mean Snide is even using an alcors because he wants to do as much TPS in the start as possible. I chose to go another way by trying to do as much DPS as i possibly can.

 

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This is funny, at this stage due base threat in abilties noone should be threat capped, if they are your screwed in anythign after mc. B If you want healers to look good take less. C Bear threat is op

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I dont know what threat cap means, Probably not a term i would use since it would mean that someone is doing everything perfectly 100% of the time with the best possible gear which never is going to be possible.

Taking fewer healers are going to increase downtime which is not an option in a speedrun. All our healers are already popping every consumable possible to gain mana and you need healing rotation on trash to let the healers regen. BossFights only makes up a small % of an entire MC raid. 

Third. Druids sucks.

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my head hurts from reading these replies.

Molten core mobs hit like wet noodles.

you dont need min/max mitigation.  

 

warrior tank specs change based on content available and what buffs are available. for MC? you can basically guarentee full world buffs the entire instance meaning speccing around that modifier would increase TPS and clear speed.

 

BWL = more mitigation until you get t2 and etc, then you can start changing back to massive TPS + clear speed.  you only need full mitigation for certain encounters which become piss ez once you do it a few times. I take Snides guide as a guide to clearing MC fast and thats how you spec your tank warrior to do so (as long as your raid can keep up with it). the faster things die, the less damage you take overall.

Snide even explains why he chooses certain builds for certain occasions. the 4/5 unbridled + 5/5 cruelty without impale is great for STARTER 60 tanks with no gear or heavy tank gear that just saps their TPS capability in 5mans. the 5% crit and extra rage from unbridled+AM gives that undergeared tank the opportunity to DO TPS in heavy starter mitigation gear where he would otherwise die in 5 hits with 5k hp buffed.   

the 17/3/31 impale spec is ideal for Late MC/BWL/AQ and beyond. the only thing that changes with that spec is certain talents in the prot tree.  for bwl, extra defense will help on chrom/nef. for AQ, imp SB helps lock down Giant Eyes on c'thun etc. you just tailor the build to what is needed to the content you're clearing. but the principle stays true. 5/5 tac mastery to get AM gives static rage generation overtime even during blood rage b4 pulls. another concept is the more mitigation gear you have to avoid damage, the less rage generation you have overall. this is where AM makes up the loss from that generation. there is no "1 spec fits all scenario". tailor your warrior to the encounter. if you feel like geheness hits like a noodle cup, put on dps gear. if you feel like golemagg hits like a dumptruck, throw on some more mitigation gear, use more consumables etc. a tank that can adapt to every encounter is what you want to be, not a drone who follows online guides to the T and expects X results. experiment to optimize your playstyle and character for mass gains. 

never rage starve yourself as a tank.. or you will eventually kill your raid with terrible TPS gain on fights in BWL(ones with threat drops)

 

 

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51 minutes ago, Imbaslap said:

you just tailor the build to what is needed to the content you're clearing.

I agree on everything you are saying. But its going to be a very poor guide if you say "Use what's best".

People wants to know which things are best etc without conducting any research or testing themself. Snide is pretty far ahead of the curve when it comes to this. And people are bombarding his guide with basic knowledge and horrible talent setup/gear setups with things that doesnt even exist in the patch yet. like "use crystal flask"... Trust me i would if i could. Both of these guys @Garun and @Undertanker seems pretty clueless when it comes to speedrunning and advance tanking tactics etc. But they still bother commenting on this thread, and shit like this piss me off. Stop spreading incorrect information around.

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This guide should specify that it's for speedclearing MC and not a general tanking guide. Yes this guide is great for speed-running MC, but this will be a poor idea to use for progression. I was wrong to say that it's a bad guide altogether, but it is bad for using as a progression tank guide. This is only for MTs with guilds that have MC on drunk farm and want to speed clear it.

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Indeed and thats the first thing he stated in the video. That this is not a basic "how to tank guide" look for any those elsewhere. Then he says its more towards end game optimatization and speed running, Which it is. 

So before people start throwing shit around about wether or not this guide is good, they should probably check towards what audience its directed at.

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Best TPS maker is buffed fury warrior in def stance w/o Salvation =)

Tanked weekly Gluth/Noth/Thaddius as fury warrior. At Noth you can see that fury gets aggro burst 2-3x times higher than any prot warrior (In default 17-34-0 w/o Defiance).

As for prot warrior - any +hit gear provides so much +tps as skilled fingers and correct rotation. Most tanks are simply wasting their abilitys(1sec idle state for Shield Slam is ~200 TPS lost, same for other CDs) So you should "buff" your latency (server lag(raiding in off-time),network, keyboard, fingers, brain).

Lionheart? Savage Glad? +hit mail bracers? HoJ? +2%crit trinket? - Fuck it! You're tank!

The only usable thing in your guide is green Mara trinket - its really OP.

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And yeah, about HS:

HS is lowest prio in tank rotation. You shouldn't use it AT ALL if you haven't enough rage for Shield block+shield slam+revenge+1xSunderArmor(2x if you have perfect latency and got enough rage). 

HS is mostly Vaelstaz key-ability, so you dont need 1.3 speed weapon at most encounters. Just replace it with high dps weap (Crul, Spineshatter, CTS, R14, Maladath etc)

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Cool video, and quite informative for the most part. However, you really over value Alcors. @Undertanker gave the evidence to support why tanks should use a slower weap. If you claim that everything you do is "chasing realm stats" then pop on over to realm players and brows the lists of tanks from Anathema. There's a reason no one uses 1.3 weapons anymore and I think that there is plenty of evidence and validation to support this.

The spec and you gave while it might be mind blowing or revolutionary to some is old news to many of the other top tier tanks. Like @Sulf pointed out, try going even further down the fury tree. 

It's odd because I agree with your overall philosophy of rage/tps>mitigation however you seem again to really devalue how important hit is. Hit cap should be the number 1 stat any tank should prioritize first, especially as like you said, you have r14s in your guild pumping out crazy damage. Then stam>crit>def etc.

7 hours ago, Storpappa said:

This asshat here is claiming that first of all that impale is a 4% dps difference!? 20% increased damage on your crits is only 3-4% DPS? how fucking bad at math are you.

 

Increase the critical strike damage BONUS of your abilities. 20% increased damage? How bad at math are you

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8 minutes ago, Nocturn said:

Increase the critical strike damage BONUS of your abilities. 20% increased damage? How bad at math are you

Yes please enlighten me how that is just a 3-4% dps increase in a raid with worldbuffs/all consumables etc. Please tell me

I hope you know that Anathema and Elysium are on different patch notes. Which kinda contradict the whole point of comparing them.

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15 hours ago, Storpappa said:

This asshat here is claiming that first of all that impale is a 4% dps difference!? 20% increased damage on your crits is only 3-4% DPS? how fucking bad at math are you.

 

7 hours ago, Storpappa said:

Yes please enlighten me how that is just a 3-4% dps increase in a raid with worldbuffs/all consumables etc.

https://forum.elysium-project.org/topic/29931-is-impale-spec-still-the-best-threat-spec/?do=findComment&comment=292373

 

Next time, I won't go digging for information already provided.

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Holy shit the amount of popcorn and soda i'll need for this thread.

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11 hours ago, Garun said:

This guide should specify that it's for speedclearing MC and not a general tanking guide. Yes this guide is great for speed-running MC, but this will be a poor idea to use for progression. I was wrong to say that it's a bad guide altogether, but it is bad for using as a progression tank guide. This is only for MTs with guilds that have MC on drunk farm and want to speed clear it.

Yet anyone who bothered to watch the video would already know this is designed for quick MC clearing and not a general tank guide. Think we all see what the real problem is here.

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3 hours ago, Undertanker said:

You can have over 30% crit easily with impale specc, And you're still under the impression that the damage taken is a problem on the content that elysium is on?? I mean you could generally tank without a single point in defense and it would be completely fine. With a feral you could even go beyond 35 % crit Try to remake the calculations where you don't limit the amount of crit I'm sure you'll reach a different conclusion.

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"The strength of Impale came from being about to SPAM heroic strike with a 1.3 Dagger which is impossible other than Val.   While doing a comparison of threat of Impale vs 8/5/38, always have to remember you have 2% less crit using impale spec.    It's such a small difference in raw DPS / TPS while sacrificing tankability.   Sunder isn't about just getting 5 stacks early and stopping, it is your 3rd best threat per rage ability.  Heroic strike is used at the cost forgoing shield block a lot of times, potentially being counter productive to your revenge on cooldown and leaving you open to crushings/crits."

 

Is the only thing at the end? Is that the "break-down"

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Yes... Thats why i said that you can have over 30% crit up to 35 with a feral druid. you stopped at 25. The conclusion is that it is signicantly more TPS with Impale then the 8/5/38 thing you're trying to shine light on. We do not need Improved taunt, Improved shield wall, Defense for molten core. Rendering that specc totally pointless. I know its a good one for progression but there is 0 progression on elysium. Everyone is competing on realmplayers.

You even said earlier how you thought avoidance would increase threat generation (parry). And how 3-4% would be less then 3-4% TPS. I'm not sure if you've ever done speedruns or if your guild/raid or whatever pushes records on realmplayers. We have warriors doing 800 DPS on magmadar on 1.3 content.

Btw there is nothing about gears and buffs. you've just compared higher crit values with impale vs going 5 cruelty. I would hardly call it a "break-down" since the only thing it says that Impale scales with crit.... Like that wasen't obvious already

Just FYI i crit 1000-1200 with shieldslam over 1k with heroic strike on 1.3 content so those values are abit off.

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