Jump to content
Sign in to follow this  
Malinha

World boss (low hp) re-tagging issue!

Recommended Posts

A statement on the world boss re-tagging issue directed to the developers and players of Elysium, from the leadership of the guilds <Praise> and <Demise> on the Elysium PvP server.

 

Before we go into what we think about the current situation and what actions that should be taken, we would like to clarify a few things:

Firstly, we would want to say that when going into a world boss fight, we knew this mechanic was in place.

We’ve been operating under the assumption that this is not an exploit based on information from players on Anathema, previously known as Nostalrius PvP. This is how it worked back in 2005 and this is how it is currently working on this server. We didn’t like how it worked, since we think that the mechanic can somewhat delegitimize some of our Azuregos kills, at least in the eyes of others players on the server. When we kill a boss this way, it makes the kill feel less satisfying to us.

Secondly, our mindset when fighting for a world boss has always been that we are going to kill it, regardless of how much time and effort it takes us. Knowing that there’s such a mechanic, we have to account for it when we make our decisions during world bosses. When fighting Azuregos we often end up in a scenario where we feel that whichever guild gets the tag after the opposition has been wiped out is the guild that will likely kill the boss. This puts a lot of pressure on tagging the boss as soon as it resets. And this is where most of the drama surrounding the world bosses on Elysium and the amazing world PvP events leading up to a kill came from.

Thirdly, we’d like to share with you the official stance, made by Game master Indormi on the Elysium forums (source: https://forum.elysium-project.org/topic/46184-azuregos-bug-abuse/#comment-392495):

Quote

It is currently under the GM Teams belief that "THIS IS NOT AN EXPLOIT" bosses are not supposed to immediately regenerate back to 100% health when reset.” - Game master Indormi, 7th of March, 2017.

 

Now, going forward we think that it is in the best interest of the server to keep the world bosses as competitive as possible. People work hard on scouting, preparations, organisations both within guilds and factions, just to be left with a feeling of defeat, more so due to a major belief that this is a ''faulty mechanic'' than the fact they got defeated by their opposing faction in a fair world PvP setting.

This is why we would like to recommend Elysium and it’s developers to consider changing the way that world bosses regenerate health after getting reset, even if it’s not “blizzlike”.

 

Regards,

 

The leadership of the Praise and Demise world boss coalition.

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Quote

A statement on the world boss re-tagging issue directed to the developers and players of Elysium, from the leadership of the guilds <Praise> and <Demise> on the Elysium PvP server.

This sound like Wintrading in PVE , i assume should be banable .

/Kind regards Killerduki

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
37 minutes ago, killerduki said:

This sound like Wintrading in PVE , i assume should be banable .

/Kind regards Killerduki

Wintrading between two alliance guilds? You're pretty fucking stupid sometimes.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'm torn behind this discussion. One side of me is heartbroken for losing it twice like this. The other side is I don't think this will change anything. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
34 minutes ago, Vaccine said:

Wintrading between two alliance guilds? You're pretty fucking stupid sometimes.

You know , Blizzard back in the days did some lovely Bans for "Tagging" World Bosses between 2 Alliance Guild/s.

Let me enlighten you with pure big blue post and everything about it, since you are here to insult:

https://web.archive.org/web/20060529065701/http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.aspx?fn=blizzard-archive&t=27&p=1&tmp=1#post27

May 29 2006

The introduction of Outdoor Raid Encounters in the most recent patch has added an entirely new dimension to the World of Warcraft. Players are now allowed to participate in high-end content without the time investment necessary to hack ones way to the bottom of the dankest dungeons. The addition of these encounters opens up new game dynamics, both good and bad. While we do not wish to detract from the positive aspects of these encounters, we feel it necessary to address certain negative aspects to preserve the gameplay experience for all.

In contrast to Outdoor Raid Encounters, dungeons have been created as instances to allow multiple groups of players to participate in difficult encounters simultaneously and without being hindered by the actions of other like-minded players. Outdoor raid encounters have no such allowances and as such, open themselves up to instances of player collision.

An example of this player collision can be seen with one of the Outdoor Raid bosses, Lord Kazzak. While we expect a certain amount of competition for such high-end creeps, some players have been abusing Kazzaks special abilities with the specific intent to harass other players. At this time, our In-Game Support Staff (Game Masters) will be taking action against players who do not allow other groups to combat Lord Kazzak as intended by the Development Team.

Below are some examples of what we will and will not be taking action against. These examples are broken down by PVP (Player vs. Player) and PVE (Player vs. Environment), as the differing rulesets affect our stance. Keep in mind that these are extreme situations used to clearly illustrate what we do and do not find acceptable. Not all instances will be as cut-and-dry as those listed below. Game Master discretion will be used in grey-area occurrences.

PVE Ruleset

- When a group of players has engaged Lord Kazzak, any other players interfering in the encounter may be given a warning, regardless of faction, as in the examples below:

- A group of Alliance characters has legitimately engaged Lord Kazzak and a level 1 Horde character engages Lord Kazzak as well (Level 1 Horde player receives warning).

- A group of Horde characters has legitimately engaged Lord Kazzak and a level 1 Horde character engages Lord Kazzak as well (Level 1 Horde player receives warning).


PVP Ruleset

- When a group of players has engaged Lord Kazzak, any same-faction players interfering in the encounter may be given a warning as in the examples below:

- A group of Alliance characters has legitimately engaged Lord Kazzak and a level 1 Alliance character engages Lord Kazzak as well (Level 1 Alliance player receives warning).

- However, when a group of players has engaged Lord Kazzak, any players of the opposing faction interfering in the encounter are free to do so as a PVP resolution is available to the victims.

- A group of Alliance characters has legitimately engaged Lord Kazzak and a level 1 Horde character engages Lord Kazzak as well (No warnings given).

 

(This action with tagging should be banable and is Blizzlike)

/Kind regards Killerduki

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

+1

And for me it doesn’t matter if it’s "blizzlike" or not. Our gameplay has changed over the past couple of years. We all know the mechanics way better than back those days, we have a more international and bigger community combined on one server than it has ever been on an official server. So sometimes adjustments have to be made to fit our needs and it’s not blizzlike either to increase herb spawnrates due to high server pop, to lock whispering for lvl <10 players or to change mob/boss mechanics to prevent solo farming in DM. It might be a known bug from vanilla days but there was not such a high competition over world-bosses and I'm sure that kill-stealing bosses (sorry to speak of "stealing" but in my eyes tagging a boss at 20ish % is nothing else but stealing someone else's effort) on this level was not INTENDED by blizzard and if it had become such a huge (and common) problem like now on elysium they would have fixed it.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Vaccine said:

Wintrading between two alliance guilds? You're pretty fucking stupid sometimes.

I actually do not think he is serious or simply has no idea what hes talking about, as in the fact that he does not understand english because he linked rules that clearly state as per blizzlike alliance is allowed to engage horde on a world boss on a PvP server...

Quote

 

- However, when a group of players has engaged Lord Kazzak, any players of the opposing faction interfering in the encounter are free to do so as a PVP resolution is available to the victims.

- A group of Alliance characters has legitimately engaged Lord Kazzak and a level 1 Horde character engages Lord Kazzak as well (No warnings given).

 

What part of this rule makes tagging bannable and blizzlike Killerduki?

This rule is made so people do not suicide level1 alts into Kazzak to heal him, or green dragons to wipe raids with mushrooms / poison diseases...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 hours ago, Sanger said:

Keep it blizzlike.

Could you explain to us why this particular case has to be blizzlike, whereas other cases (herb, lockpicking, DM farming methods) didn't have to be blizzlike? I would like to put this issue into a wider context 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, TheRealJindo said:

Could you explain to us why this particular case has to be blizzlike, whereas other cases (herb, lockpicking, DM farming methods) didn't have to be blizzlike? I would like to put this issue into a wider context 

Those changes was made to account for the unblizzlike population. More herbs was needed. and the farming methods i do not really agree with, but i understand why its going to be needed. a massive population that farm gold straight out of the world causes massive inflation, which then causes pretty much every item to increase in price. which then will turn away newer players for a server cause they can't seem to afford buying anything without leveling a alt mage to farm.

 

As for Duki's reply, lay off the boose mate.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Shouldn't the intended behavior be that to be able to re-tag a boss, it should enter a reset status in the first place. Said reset status implying an evade mode until the mob reaches its original spawn location ?

In that case then upon resetting we should not be able to re-tag mobs. Things bit different if you fight it on top of its spawn point I assume because he would reach its original position before getting enough HP ticks to reg to full ?

Seen the retag stuff occur on Nost PvP/Anathema far away from the spawn point and it's very lame, for everyone.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
54 minutes ago, Slicy said:

Shouldn't the intended behavior be that to be able to re-tag a boss, it should enter a reset status in the first place. Said reset status implying an evade mode until the mob reaches 100% health?

In that case then upon resetting we should not be able to re-tag mobs. Things bit different if you fight it on top of its spawn point I assume because he would reach its original position before getting enough HP ticks to reg to full ?

Seen the retag stuff occur on Nost PvP/Anathema far away from the spawn point and it's very lame, for everyone.

Fixed*

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Slicy said:

Shouldn't the intended behavior be that to be able to re-tag a boss, it should enter a reset status in the first place. Said reset status implying an evade mode until the mob reaches its original spawn location ?

In that case then upon resetting we should not be able to re-tag mobs. Things bit different if you fight it on top of its spawn point I assume because he would reach its original position before getting enough HP ticks to reg to full ?

Seen the retag stuff occur on Nost PvP/Anathema far away from the spawn point and it's very lame, for everyone.

Well yes, that's also one of the problems. During both the 28% retag and 15% retag we did as Praise the boss didn't even reset fully to its original pull location. But even when it is kited back to its pull location and resetted there, tagging it there at 15% would still reduce enjoyment of the world boss encounter for reasons mentioned above.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 hours ago, TheRealJindo said:

Could you explain to us why this particular case has to be blizzlike, whereas other cases (herb, lockpicking, DM farming methods) didn't have to be blizzlike? I would like to put this issue into a wider context 

Good luck, Jindo.  Everytime I bring this point, the wider context as you put it, the thread ends up locked.

 

2 hours ago, Roxy said:

Those changes was made to account for the unblizzlike population. More herbs was needed. and the farming methods i do not really agree with, but i understand why its going to be needed.

Here's the problem with that position, Roxy: While the high population is often used by staff and by others as the reason for all the unblizzlike changes (dm farming, herbs, polymorph regen, et al), the argument is weak.  High population is used to broadly defend every unblizzlike change, where on a case by case basis, sometimes it might apply and sometimes it does not.  The implementation of said "fixes" (herb spawn rates in particular) is out of control.  I know herbers that get 15+ black lotus per day easily, without significant competition.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Boss should reset to full HP to legitimize the kills.  This should be obvious.

19 hours ago, Malinha said:

It is currently under the GM Teams belief that "THIS IS NOT AN EXPLOIT" bosses are not supposed to immediately regenerate back to 100% health when reset.” - Game master Indormi, 7th of March, 2017.

This was never in dispute everyone knows this.  The point of contention is why is the boss being re-tagged before it has regained its health?  I haven't witnessed this yet but the series of events that leads to this sanctioned exploit should be slim to none.  Either all of the defenders die before the aggressors have been placed on Azuregos' aggro table (essentially the aggressors just watch them wipe from afar) and once they see the reset they spam instant casts for a fresh tag, but even then only if the boss was super close to his spawn point; or the aggressors defeat the defenders and then knowingly kite the tagged Azuregos back to his spawn before resetting.  Is this what is happening?  I hope so, because if Azuregos is simply being re-tagged at low HP when he is no where near his spawn point that goes against the behavior of every mob I've ever seen in my time spent playing this game, and seems asinine.  Assuming that is not the case, I would support a full reset regardless of how the boss became disengaged to promote the health of the server.

Edited by saintnixon
typo

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
Sign in to follow this  

×