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You haven't commented on ANYTHING I've said except to cry how it's not fair.  Newsflash, it's not supposed to be fair.  People who put in more time and more effort get better rewards than people who put in less time and less effort.  That's vanilla WoW, that's life.  Voice chat, gear, and dedicated players don't simply fall out of the sky, premaders have put time and effort into assembling them.  And the comparison to raiding is absolutely not absurd, you refuse to address it because you CAN'T address it.  Putting people with voice chat, gear, proper group comp against 40 trade channel randoms and crying how it's unfair when they don't  do equally well in MC is what's absurd.Also, pugs are getting stomped into submission because brackets are shrinking.  And they're shrinking because few people are motivated to farm PvP rank with the gear currently the way it is.  Updated gear = more motivation for casual pvp = more people in queue = higher chance of pug vs pug.  Of course it's frustrating to meet nothing but premades in every game and get GY stomped.  The solution is to motivate more people to queue, not to punish people who play the game in organized groups as it's intended to be played. 

Right now there are large stretches of time every day, at least on Zeth, where the Alliance premade are literally the ONLY team in the queue.  On the other side, there's the Horde premade and usually one Horde pug.  It's so dead that we can tell exactly when Alliance are done vs the Horde pug because we get a queue pop ~30 seconds later.  The occasional GY pug stomp is a lot more bearable when you know there's a good chance you won't meet the same team again for a while. That's how it was on nost and in the early months of Anathema.  There were people who solo queued all the way to rank 13 on nost simply because the brackets were so large and any one solo queuer had a relatively lower chance of meeting a premade.  Part of that was due to the sheer population size but a big part of it was also because nost released the updated PvP gear early, in the BWL patch at the same time as the r14 weapons were updated. 

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46 minutes ago, QQsya said:

You haven't commented on ANYTHING I've said except to cry how it's not fair.  Newsflash, it's not supposed to be fair.  People who put in more time and more effort get better rewards than people who put in less time and less effort.  That's vanilla WoW, that's life.  Voice chat, gear, and dedicated players don't simply fall out of the sky, premaders have put time and effort into assembling them.  And the comparison to raiding is absolutely not absurd, you refuse to address it because you CAN'T address it.  Putting people with voice chat, gear, proper group comp against 40 trade channel randoms and crying how it's unfair when they don't  do equally well in MC is what's absurd.

I'm not crying, I'm stating a fact, and if you look back through the previous 8 pages you will see this is a common complaint among players. Yes, players who put in more time and effort are rewarded (I don't think creating a premade requires the mass of time/effort you seem to think it does) but we are talking about encouraging greater pvp participation, which I have said is hindered by unfairness in premades stomping pugs into graveyard submission. No one enjoys that. Not even the premade. I never did, it was just the best way to grind honor.

I'm not addressing your comparison because it's a ridiculous comparison; if 40 people in an MC raid directly impacted the enjoyment of another 40 people in their MC raid, it would be a valid comparison, but it doesn't. Hence why you don't see people complaining about premade.. raids..?  Anyway, I'm not arguing with this brick wall anymore. I'll let the other 8 pages of complaints speak for themselves.

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And you refuse to address the solutions offered and instead suggest to burn down the whole stadium because your group of ladm8s can't win against AC Milan.  Done with cryers, if you don't like playing in your premade so much, no one is forcing you to.  I bet you won't, though, because all your rhetoric about fair play and sportsmanship is just that.  Rhetoric.  Absolutely smalltime. 

Even at its deadest, Kronos I still had a more active PvP scene than zeth, including frequent pug vs pug games.  Know why?  Because the updated pvp gear was released and casual rankers who only wanted r7 or r8 actually had a reason to join.  The reason pugs get stomped is because only dedicated PvPers are PvPing right now, and dedicated PvPers tend to form premades.  Give people a reason to queue casually and brackets will expand, pug vs pug games will become more common.  The other option is to cater to the people who play for an hour a day, queue one game, lose, assume it must have been a premade because NO ONE COULD WIN AGAINST A DEDICATED PVPER SUCH AS MYSELF and then come to cry about it on the forum.

There are problems with PvP right now but "people play together in an organized group and win" is NOT one of them.  The most successful players are the ones that work together toward a shared goal.  It's frustrating to lose to them but it shouldn't come as a surprise unless you're a Legion baby who needs everything handed to them for playing solo.  End of discussion.

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Out of suggestions presented in this thread, removing or limiting premades seems to be the most acceptable, as premades were not original feature for battlegrounds. Though Elysium developers would need to adress the problem of premades synchronising their queueing to get most of their team in anyway.

You can also read, from these forums, about some frustration towards the rank/gear disparity between alliance and the horde (on Elysium server), so updating the PvP gear right now could make the situation even worse. 

 

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The way I see it, premade vs premade being seperated from pug vs pug is probably possible, but it's not as simple as a fix as it's suggested to be.

Seperating prem vs prem from pug vs pug raises a few very important questions that would have to be answered ahead of time.

  • Does prem vs prem yield the same honor as pug vs pug? If yes, what is the actual motivator for people to play prem vs prem then? The games will almost certainly take longer due to people trying hard on both sides. Why not just take your chances in potentially easy to win pugs instead? You may argue "one team will give up" but why would people queue up for prem vs prem in the first place if they're probably just going to have to give up for honor efficiency sake?
  • If it doesn't yield the same honor as pug vs pug, how do you balance it? Will pug vs pug inevitably not allow you to keep up, even if winning the same amount of games? Doesn't that just force people to play premade games anyways if they want to rank, like it is now?
  • How do you stop people from bringing coordinated groups into pug vs pug? Even more custom systems required? If you dont do this, wont every single premade just "pug" so they can stomp anyway and you'd hate it anyways?

My point here isn't that it's impossible, my point is that you're looking at a complete revamp of the honor system when you make this suggestion. Be aware of what you ask for. A simple straight forward seperation of pug vs pug and prem vs prem without any systems to address all this might aswell be labeled

Prem vs Prem - Wintrading

Pug vs Pug - Sync queueing

And this doesn't seem like a valid solution to anything to me.

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On 22.5.2017 at 8:03 PM, Ashlol said:

 

  • What's something that you enjoy about our current PvP scene?
  • Something that you dislike?
  • What's missing?
  • What would you like to see improved?
  • Any other thoughts / comments / suggestions?

 

1. -

2. I absolutly dislike that our Chinese players on Zeth'Kur are 24/7 online because they do acc sharing and pushing honor 24/7 since days.

3. A GM that will not give you a retard comment when you write a GM Ticket for example after i reported 2 of the Chinese since they were online since 70h the answer from the GM was: "i call this dedication to our private server"

4. I would like to see a GM that could observe them and see that they are online 24/7

5. Some of the chinese players even split from em because they do that and told us that atleast 2 players (i dont wanna call out names here) are played by 3 different humans. And besides that a fool can see that they multi acc since they are online for 24/7.

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I suppose my two big main concerns are some of the common ones:

1. PuG vs Premade. It just entirely takes the fun out of BGs for both sides. Blizzlike or not, this needs to be entirely prevented. Much has been said already, so will leave it at that, and just add: Truly random BGs have always been, and still are, my most favorite aspect of WoW! (but Premade vs PUG is pure cancer)

2. Honor decay. Probably more controversial, but: I think if you don't (get to) participate on a certain week, your rank should be frozen and not decay. At least for everything under R11 or R12 or so.
I suppose for most working people, myself included, it's very tough to invest enough time to rank up. And by ranking up, I don't mean R14, but more like.. R9 or so. It's a very slow journey, and even that requires me to make some changes in my RL schedule so I'd get a few weeks with some extra free time. I wouldn't mind too much - but usually, I know I have, say, a business trip or a holiday or whatever else coming up in x weeks from now and won't be able to play that week, losing so much hard earned progress for no real reason. That pretty much made me stop trying back on Nost.. why put in so much effort this week when I know next week much of it will be gone again and there's nothing I can realistically do about it.

 

 

  

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As a PuG player the reason I'm not doing Battlegrounds is PuG vs Premade. It just takes fun out of the game for me.

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On ‎5‎/‎26‎/‎2017 at 7:19 PM, QQsya said:

Disabling premades is not the solution and, in the most polite way possible, you are kinda dumb and short-sighted if you think so

I'm actually quite intrigued by your debating style QQsya, your pulling a Trump. The whole crux of the debate was around how premades were ruining the experience and in so doing hurting the population of the server. You stated what appeared to be few facts about the argument about what the rest of us were wanting that and then began arguing back about those points. The problem is your stated reasoning behind our position is blatantly wrong (we want to make it easier for the casuals to get gear). You took over the conversation and drove it down a road going nowhere, because your arguing back against a position that basically noboy holds. We don't want to make it easier for casuals to get gear, we want to make it so the vast majority of the server can enjoy PvP. You either missed the entire point of the conversation, or your cleverly trying to divert the conversation away from an inalienable truth. Premades destroy the PvP scene, they drive everyone except for themselves away and then argue 'we are the scene".

I don't care who gets what gear. I don't care how easy or hard it is, I care that the game is being completely bastardized into something it never was on retail, and never should have been on a private server.

Premades are not "playing the game like it should be" playing the game like it should would be premades vs premade, hour long WSG games where the best team wins. Honor farming is not, and never was "playing the game"

You can continue to debate the non topics, but the rest of us will continue to discuss honest ways to create an environment where the majority can enjoy PvP. I don't mean get welfare PvP gear, I mean where we can do 5-10 bg's a week and actually enjoy it.

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- Enable multi-queue again

- Implement BG-Announcer

- Make BGs from 10-59 more attractive with rep/honor increase, remote registration and xpstop

- Implement PvP world events with special rewards

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I'd reset CD's at the end of a dual, if possible. Enable remote queuing. Re-enable multi-queue (remove you from the other 60secs or something after selecting enter on the one that popped). World events sound like fun. I'd also allow purchase of r7-10 gear, either for honour or gold.

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4 hours ago, reagan said:

...

I like how you say I'm pulling a trump and then your entire post is basically

 

Premades, organized honor farming, agreed-upon honor brackets, etc something that never happened in retail?  LOL.

>I mean where we can do 5-10 bg's a week and actually enjoy it.

So you want to burn down the entire system to cater to people who play for an hour a week?  You realize that's exactly the attitude that ruined retail, right?

Incentivize people to queue casually and they will do so.  More casual queuers = higher chance of pug vs pug.  If people playing together as an organized group to achieve a shared goal(winning a BG, in this case) makes you upset you are playing the wrong game and possibly the wrong genre, dude. Yeah, losing to a team that's better organized and better prepared is frustrating, I say this as someone who solo queued to r10 and exalted AB/AV rep on Anathema, but if there is anything worth having in this game then there will always be people working together in a group to get it.  That's it, end of discussion, PvP rank is not a special snowflake in that regard. 

Incentivize people to queue casually and they will do so.  More people in queue = lower chance for pugs to meet premades.  Nostalrius always had plenty of pug vs pug because there were always people queueing casually wanting their 2/6 r7 gear or access to cheap potions or whatever else.  You can continue to pretend that casual queuers are some kind of Buddhist ascetics who care not for the material rewards and only need the spiritual reward of a game well played or whatever the hell your argument is, but I tell you this:  it's don't. 

 

 

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On 5/27/2017 at 10:17 AM, sreaver said:

Out of suggestions presented in this thread, removing or limiting premades seems to be the most acceptable, as premades were not original feature for battlegrounds. Though Elysium developers would need to adress the problem of premades synchronising their queueing to get most of their team in anyway.

You can also read, from these forums, about some frustration towards the rank/gear disparity between alliance and the horde (on Elysium server), so updating the PvP gear right now could make the situation even worse. 

 

Out of all suggestions in this thread removing premades is easily the worst suggestion.  Premades were an original feature in bgs.  In a game built around organizing with other players to reach a goal asking to remove the option to group up is just a massive fail.

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On 5/22/2017 at 2:03 PM, Ashlol said:

However, our PvP scene doesn't seem to be active and reminiscent of the original Vanilla WoW. As a result of these concerns, we'd like for you as a community to express feedback on the PvP scene:

I realize I'm a bit late to this discussion since I don't actually post on the forums a whole lot, or even pay them much attention. I tend to stay away from quite a bit of drama.

But here I find a post from you, Elyssium, who have followed a path so clearly divergent from that of "original Vanilla Wow," only to wonder why it is exactly that the "pvp scene" seems so much different from original Vanilla wow.

Well, go figure, you'd think you would have your answer right there, but let me break it down for you.

First thing is first. There were a myriad of retail servers in Vanilla. Each individual server had its own pvp community. Yea, they all probably had some traits that you could classify them under, but I just think its worth mentioning that there really is no concrete "original Vanilla Wow pvp scene to actually aspire to." With that said, I think its rather obvious that making decisions to "make players happy" is obviously going to have a detrimental effect if you're trying to achieve an "authentic vanilla experience" (whatever you determine that to be, as that's quite a nebulous concept in itself).

It is very important to remember that Blizzard released expansions and changed the pvp honor system for reasons. Yes, those reasons may have been motivated by making money and selling expansions and subscriptions, but you got to remember that if people aren't enjoying those systems, then they probably won't make a whole lot of money off of it.

So, at the end of the day, you've got to ask yourself: "what is it that you really want to achieve here?"

Who do you want to cater to? Because, honestly, if you're worried that the "pvp scene" isn't as vibrant as you'd like, and you've produced a vanilla wow system, then its just not going to happen. You could do something, like increase gear rewards for pvp play, but that's going to be sacrificing the blizzard authenticity for your desired "scene."

I know it might be frustrating for someone to sit here and tell you that changing the system "wouldn't be blizzlike," but the honest truth is if you don't like the amount of pvp play on the server in relation to how it was in vanilla, then you honestly need to take a look in the mirror and decide whether or not your pvp system is blizzlike or not.

I'm done ranking, I don't have any incentive to advocate for more "blizzlike" queues, in actuality I have the opposite interest. However, If you're going to sit there and act as though you don't understand why the pvp scene isn't like it was in vanilla wow, without taking the time to sit down and reflect about the kind of "scene" you've incentivized (or disincentived), then I think it is necessary to give you guys a cold hard explanation as to exactly why things are the way they are.

Don't get me wrong, you need to punish win traders (win trading happened back in vanilla btw, as well, that isn't in and of itself evidence that the "scene" isn't reminiscent to vanilla wow). However, you might ask yourself why so many of your "serious" pvp players had to resort to win trading. I'm not suggesting that what they did was excusable, but what I am saying is that I think you have set up a system that doesn't encourage efficient and "politically gifted" players that was such an important element to the vanilla wow pvp system.

I mean, if some random pleb complained that he couldn't get into AQ40 because he had full greens, no consumes, and no guild, most everyone on these servers would look at him and say "this is vanilla man, deal with it." But for some reason when it comes to the pvp queuers we actually listen to those kinds of players when they complain about getting stomped by premades. Sorry, the community is only consistent in their inconsistency when it comes to this issue.

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Elysium players complaining about the pvp system need to realize this is how it is at the beginning of these servers.  At the start, there’s a big influx of people who want to hit Rank 13/14.  I guess you could say this apart of that “fresh” start experience you all (thought you?) wanted.  Over time as more people finish ranking the premades that only seek to grind honor for gear become less and less common (this is probably 95% of premades). 

Once someone hits rank 14 they aren’t going to continue grinding BGs 16 hours a day in a premade, most will almost completely stop doing BGs for quite some time because the grind to rank 14 is exhausting.

Also upgrading PVP gear is a bad idea in my opinion.  I don’t play on Elysium so it makes no difference to me if they do or don’t but I think it’ll increase the number of gear farming premades and influences the PVE scene.  Do you really want more dodgemades farming PVP gear that’s BIS for PVE?

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15 hours ago, Hurricane2 said:

Out of all suggestions in this thread removing premades is easily the worst suggestion.  Premades were an original feature in bgs.  In a game built around organizing with other players to reach a goal asking to remove the option to group up is just a massive fail.

It might be worst, or it might not be. What I am saying, is that it's more acceptable as far as 'blizzlike' goes, compared to say lower respec cost. When battlegrounds came, the way to get to play with your friends or team mates was to synchronise running in to wsg portal and hope most of you got in to the same game. So not having premades is relatively 'blizzlike', as it actually happened in real vanilla, whereas lower respec cost never existed.

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4 hours ago, Diogenes said:

Don't get me wrong, you need to punish win traders (win trading happened back in vanilla btw, as well, that isn't in and of itself evidence that the "scene" isn't reminiscent to vanilla wow). However, you might ask yourself why so many of your "serious" pvp players had to resort to win trading. I'm not suggesting that what they did was excusable, but what I am saying is that I think you have set up a system that doesn't encourage efficient and "politically gifted" players that was such an important element to the vanilla wow pvp system.

I mean, if some random pleb complained that he couldn't get into AQ40 because he had full greens, no consumes, and no guild, most everyone on these servers would look at him and say "this is vanilla man, deal with it." But for some reason when it comes to the pvp queuers we actually listen to those kinds of players when they complain about getting stomped by premades. Sorry, the community is only consistent in their inconsistency when it comes to this issue.

well put

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Imo update the PvP gear the same way Nost did to encourage PvP participation. This does not break anything as stated previously as the gear update will come too late and make it obsolete. HF playing 16hrs a day for multiple weeks grinding gear that is barely better than MC gear. Also, stop the china account sharing motherfuckers, Nost banned shitloads of chinese because of it. Just check the online times of the br1 chinese guys (whole Elysium br1 horde side is only chinese atm).

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Darrowshire brackets pretty brutal, with a job pretty much have to nolife(standing 7+) for a small gain outside AV weekend

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I can imagine the true drama in the head of devs at the moment:

"make happy the vast majority of casuals or make happy the core nolifers users who play 24*7 on Ely just because on vanilla being a  nerd nolifer give you an huge edge"

Shakespearean dilemma

 

 

 

 

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