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Class with highest ceiling? PvP

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New to WoW in general, rolling here since friends are and I'm wondering what class has the highest ceiling/skill cap. I always enjoyed those classes more that lived and died by the usage of certain abilities, or had really awesome potential with skillshots etc...

 

Probably spent 18 hours or so messing around on an instant 60 server just doing battlegrounds and probably just as long reading/watching vids and so far it seems like mage and druid have the most going on. 

 

What's your guys opinion on which classes players get the most out of when mastered compared to you average player?

 

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Warrior just needs gear and a healer and recks all , without it its terrible.

Druid has a high skill cap due to shapeshifting in and out of bear cat and normal forms.When done right u feel like a beast and hard to kill.

Rogues and frost mages have a high skill cap too due to getting your macros sorted out and using your cooldowns properly.

I would say Druid/Rogues/Mages have a high skill cap followed by warriors but they really only need a healer tbh...

Then it is ele shaman and destro lock due to totem timing but even still its relatively easily due to the OP cc they have.Shaman low cd interupts , can kite and lock has seduce+fear+death coil+aoe fear+self heals making it a lower skill cap.

Last but not least hunter , pala and priest have the lowest skill cap due to few buttons to smash.

 

So all in all high to low skill cap as follows: Druid/Rogue/Frost mage-----Ele shaman/Destro lock-----Hunter/Pala/Priest

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21 hours ago, suhail1200 said:

Last but not least hunter , pala and priest have the lowest skill cap due to few buttons to smash

While I agree with druids having a particularly high skill-ceiling, frostmages arguably have the "lowest amount og buttons to smash"...

All classes have high skill-ceilings. There are good and the there are bad players.

Edited by Zazabi

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The skill cap isn't in connection with number of buttons. Its about the variety of actions you can use to answer any situation,and the difference between a bad and a good player for the class.

I would say:

1) rogue (there is a reason why u see so many pvp videos of them)

2) druid (very rare good players)

3) mage (its easy to look like a good player,but very good mages show you the potential)

4) shaman (lots of tricks, unbreakable broke the complexity of the class)

5) hunter / lock (pet management is something which makes the difference)

6) paladins (no wonder,as paladin u cannot surprise anyone. Who said reckbomb? Come on...)

7) Priest (I don't see much difference between good or bad players)

8) warrior (everything depends on gear)

 

 

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1) Rogue - Setup is everything. You mess up and you have one escape that may or may not work.

2) Druid - Requires setup but is more forgiving of mistakes as long as you learn the whole toolkit which contains 4 different playstyles you have to juggle to maximize your effectiveness and master. Bane of all rogues. Definitely the most complex.

3) Hunter/Warlock/mage - Easy to play, but learning to control situations is where the greats separate from the pack.

4) Shaman - Offensive support and damage that can take getting used to to separate from the windfury bros.

5) Paladin - Defensive support that can easily take a beating. Has a suite of useful utilities and support/damage capabilities that can take skill to apply in the right situations at the right time especially when you need to be proactive.

6) Priest - bubble, heal, bubble, heal, scream, bubble, heal. Pretty straight forward from a gameplay standpoint, but still has nuance to uncover.

7) Warrior - charge, explode in glorious death or with a healer leave a bloody trail of dismembered bodies behind you. Only challenge is to stick to a healer, learning how to peel enemies from allies, and learning that the priest bubble is the source of your deepest hatred (no rage, no crits except for bleed over; one of the nuances mentioned for priests)

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All this noob advice is unpleasant to watch. Rogues are low skill cap. Sure you have a lot of buttons, and yes you have to use them intelligently, but Rogues don't really need to worry much about how their opponent will react, they have the element of surprise, a ridiculous amount of CCs, and they can almost always just walk away from a fight they don't want, so overall tactical considerations in skill rotations are extremely low. You pick your attack patterns and stick to them very effectively. They're pretty much the easymode of PvP. That's why the World of Roguecraft PvP videos lampooned the Rogue class and how ridiculous they are in PvP, going so far as to solo gank a R14 warrior completely naked except for 1 white worn dagger (0.9 dps) by blowing all his cooldowns since the Warrior couldn't really react to anything the Rogue was doing. And escaping from a failed engagement as a Rogue is really easy since you have all kinds of CC, Sprint, and Vanish to get out of a fight.

Druids can also pick their fights thanks to Cat Form stealth, but unlike Rogues they don't have the luxury of relentless CC, monstrous burst damage, or vanish. You have to master a large number of forms and abilities and know when to shift between them appropriately to result in victory. You also need to have a very careful eye towards gearing since the PvE sets are just fullblown healing trash and there is a large number of stats to pay careful attention to for PvP effectiveness. You're going to find yourself raiding for a lot of off-set purples and blues. Your primary source of feral damage also comes from AQ. And by the way, you can't use consumables (like potions) while shapeshifted. Tauren Druids are better than Night Elf Druids by the way, because of War Stomp (and the +5% health).

Shamans are easy enough to get the hang of, but mastery is another question as mastering your totems and maximizing your grounding totem, fire nova totem, etc. is a different game altogether, not to mention Shamans have zero (!!!) CCs/stuns unless you're playing a Tauren (which you really should) or Engineer so it's much more of a on-your-toes playstyle as careful timing of abilities, solid positioning, and proper faking out of spellcasts to lure interrupts (if an Elemental Shaman is locked out of nature school, he's in deep shit) will make or break a Shaman. Shaman master race is pretty much 30/0/21 elemental. Windfury Shamans are really popular in PvP but they're bad because you get kited very easily, you have no charge/intercept, your self-heals are shit, and you have to pray for that 20% RNG proc to give you victory. The only classes that will freely enter melee combat with you are the classes you'd rather have a shield against.

Mages are very fragile but also very mobile, featuring a variety of spells, instant cast spells, and clutch abilities that have to be used properly to win. The usual PvP specs for Mages is Frost which destroys warriors with trivial ease and packs a large number of useful cooldowns and Arcane if you want to be a 3 minute mage who can pyroblast enemies into oblivion before they know what happened. There's more specs and tricks to a mage than that. In fact mages are pretty much nothing but tricks.

Warlocks on the other hand have no mobility to speak of, using a single curse, a number of DoTs, and some powerful direct damage spells along with CC in the form of Fear or Seduction, larger hitpoints, and slight self-healing capability to win. Fear is the most easily broken (meaning easily escaped, not overpowered) CC in the game (especially if you are on the alliance where undead can counter your CCs with their racial and Shamans can remove it in regular AoE pulses just by having a Tremor Totem out - it's best to play Warlock on the Horde) and it shares diminishing returns with Seduction (DR = first your CC has full duration, second has half duration, third has quarter duration, then it's full immunity). In a way Warlocks are a more delicate class, since once cornered, most Warlocks are in deep trouble, unlike Mages who have a number of ways to rescue and protect themselves from danger in that position. Warlocks also have very little interrupt avoidance on the whole, and being able to withstand a bit more damage is somewhat of a cold comfort in those conditions, unless they are fullblown Soul Link spec with its extreme tankiness. Death Coil into a fear (or a pet Succubus using Seduction) is just about the only escape Warlocks tend to have from being cornered in melee. Both Warlock CCs share diminishing returns though, so you can't rely on them too much. Unlike Mages (esp. Frost Mages) who can deal with Warriors fairly effectively, Warlocks are in danger from them since Berserker Rage gives them fear immunity and charge/intercept will mean the warrior is immediately in melee range of a Warlock, plus Mortal Strike halves a Warlock's self-heals, so unless they have a Succubus (for Seduction) or Voidwalker (for a giant sacrifice shield) or are Soul Link spec, it can be fairly dire.

Hunters I don't remember too much about, aside from ZG trinket burst damage combos and BM pet builds. They're susceptible to deadzoning (a Hunter's deadzone is that distance between their minimum ranged attack range and maximum melee attack range where he can't do anything) but a lot of PvP hunters are BM and thus use their pet to inflict damage. They have a combination of both melee and ranged moves as well as traps, but to the best of my knowledge dedicated melee hunter builds are a rather bad idea (given their extreme focus on agility though they typically do possess melee attack power, crit, and dodge).

Priests have a larger bag of tricks if they are Shadow Priests, and ultimately typically win through healing attrition, fear, and soft CCs (slows/silences). They don't hold up well in a direct damage exchange, but their self-heals make up for that, and if they're up against a self-healing class they can usually just mana burn them. Shadow Priests are usually surprisingly tanky.

Warriors are much easier to play once you're decked out in epics than at the start. If you have bad gear it's better to PvP as deep Fury spec for the rage generation, Death Wish, and better intercepts but if your damage is high you can wreck people with Arms/Fury 2Hs by doing explosive damage. Warriors are somewhat susceptible to deadzoning (a Warrior's deadzone is the distance between his minimum intercept range and maximum melee attack range) but he can Piercing Shout for a heavy slow on someone inside his deadzone so a deadzone kite isn't that easy.

Paladins are fairly boring overall, being a super-defensive class with awful damage that mostly depends on healing attrition to win fights. They basically can't die, but they can't really kill either. They are vulnerable if you manage to lock them out of holy school, since that's everything Paladins can do, or if you manage to burst them down to while they're stunned, feared, or silenced (their PvP trinket breaks stun and fear though). They're very popular in mass PvP though because they are hard to CC and their auras, blessings, cleanse, heals, and invulnerability shield make them good supports (blessings are much weaker against horde players that know how to purge though). Some players will attempt to convince you that Paladins are the best DPS, the best tanks, and the best healers, but these players are diehard Paladin fanboys rather than rational, objective thinkers, so don't believe them. Paladins are overwhelmingly just healers in plate, with a number of utility, stun, and self-defense abilities, and their heals scale the worst with +healing gear out of all healers, but at least Paladins are by far the most mana-efficient of all healers. To give you some context on Paladins' offensive potential: Priests do better DPS than Paladins.

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1 hour ago, Aethelwulf said:

All this noob advice is unpleasant to watch. Rogues are low skill cap. Sure you have a lot of buttons, and yes you have to use them intelligently, but Rogues don't really need to worry much about how their opponent will react, they have the element of surprise, and they can almost always walk away from a fight they don't want, so overall tactical considerations in skill rotations are extremely low. You pick your attack patterns and stick to them very effectively. They're pretty much the easymode of PvP. That's why the World of Roguecraft PvP videos lampooned the Rogue class and how ridiculous they are in PvP, going so far as to solo gank a R14 warrior completely naked except for 1 white worn dagger (0.9 dps) by blowing all his cooldowns since the Warrior couldn't really react to anything the Rogue was doing. And escaping from a failed engagement as a Rogue is really easy since you have all kinds of CC, Sprint, and Vanish to get out of a fight.

Druids can also pick their fights thanks to Cat Form stealth, but unlike Rogues they don't have the luxury of relentless CC, monstrous burst damage, or vanish. You have to master a large number of forms and abilities and know when to shift between them appropriately to result in victory. You also need to have a very careful eye towards gearing since the PvE sets are just fullblown healing trash and there is a large number of stats to pay careful attention to for PvP effectiveness. You're going to find yourself raiding for a lot of off-set purples and blues. Your primary source of feral damage also comes from AQ. And by the way, you can't use consumables (like potions) while shapeshifted. Tauren Druids are better than Night Elf Druids by the way, because of War Stomp (and the +5% health).

Shamans are easy enough to get the hang of, but mastery is another question as mastering your totems and maximizing your grounding totem, fire nova totem, etc. is a different game altogether, not to mention Shamans have zero (!!!) CCs/stuns unless you're playing a Tauren (which you really should) or Engineer so it's much more of a on-your-toes playstyle as careful timing of abilities, solid positioning, and proper faking out of spellcasts to lure interrupts (if an Elemental Shaman is locked out of nature school, he's in deep shit) will make or break a Shaman. Shaman master race is pretty much 30/0/21 elemental. Windfury Shamans are really popular in PvP but they're bad because you get kited very easily, you have no charge/intercept, your self-heals are shit, and you have to pray for that 20% RNG proc to give you victory. The only classes that will freely enter melee combat with you are the classes you'd rather have a shield against.

Mages are very fragile but also very mobile, featuring a variety of spells, instant cast spells, and clutch abilities that have to be used properly to win. The usual PvP specs for Mages is Frost which destroys warriors with trivial ease and packs a large number of useful cooldowns and Arcane if you want to be a 3 minute mage who can pyroblast enemies into oblivion before they know what happened. There's more specs and tricks to a mage than that. In fact mages are pretty much nothing but tricks.

Warlocks on the other hand have no mobility to speak of, using a single curse, a number of DoTs, and some powerful direct damage spells along with CC in the form of Fear or Seduction, larger hitpoints, and slight self-healing capability to win. Fear is the most easily broken (meaning easily escaped, not overpowered) CC in the game (especially if you are on the alliance where undead can counter your CCs with their racial and Shamans can remove it in regular AoE pulses just by having a Tremor Totem out - it's best to play Warlock on the Horde) and it shares diminishing returns with Seduction (DR = first your CC has full duration, second has half duration, third has quarter duration, then it's full immunity). In a way Warlocks are a more delicate class, since once cornered, most Warlocks are in deep trouble, unlike Mages who have a number of ways to rescue and protect themselves from danger in that position. Warlocks also have very little interrupt avoidance on the whole, and being able to withstand a bit more damage is somewhat of a cold comfort in those conditions, unless they are fullblown Soul Link spec with its extreme tankiness. Death Coil into a fear (or a pet Succubus using Seduction) is just about the only escape Warlocks tend to have from being cornered in melee. Both Warlock CCs share diminishing returns though, so you can't rely on them too much. Unlike Mages (esp. Frost Mages) who can deal with Warriors fairly effectively, Warlocks are in danger from them since Berserker Rage gives them fear immunity and charge/intercept will mean the warrior is immediately in melee range of a Warlock, plus Mortal Strike halves a Warlock's self-heals, so unless they have a Succubus (for Seduction) or Voidwalker (for a giant sacrifice shield) or are Soul Link spec, it can be fairly dire.

Hunters I don't remember too much about, aside from ZG trinket burst damage combos and BM pet builds. They're susceptible to deadzoning (a Hunter's deadzone is that distance between their minimum ranged attack range and maximum melee attack range where he can't do anything) but a lot of PvP hunters are BM and thus use their pet to inflict damage. They have a combination of both melee and ranged moves as well as traps, but to the best of my knowledge dedicated melee hunter builds are a rather bad idea (given their extreme focus on agility though they typically do possess melee attack power, crit, and dodge).

Priests have a larger bag of tricks if they are Shadow Priests, and ultimately typically win through healing attrition, fear, and soft CCs (slows/silences). They don't hold up well in a direct damage exchange, but their self-heals make up for that, and if they're up against a self-healing class they can usually just mana burn them. Shadow Priests are usually surprisingly tanky.

Warriors are much easier to play once you're decked out in epics than at the start. If you have bad gear it's better to PvP as deep Fury spec for the rage generation, Death Wish, and better intercepts but if your damage is high you can wreck people with Arms/Fury 2Hs by doing explosive damage. Warriors are somewhat susceptible to deadzoning (a Warrior's deadzone is the distance between his minimum intercept range and maximum melee attack range) but he can Piercing Shout for a heavy slow on someone inside his deadzone so a deadzone kite isn't that easy.

Paladins are fairly boring overall, being a super-defensive class with awful damage that mostly depends on healing attrition to win fights. They basically can't die, but they can't really kill either. They're very popular in mass PvP though because their auras, blessings, cleanse, heals, and invulnerability shield make them good supports (blessings are much weaker against horde players that know how to purge though). Some players will attempt to convince you that Paladins are the best DPS, the best tanks, and the best healers, but these players are diehard Paladin fanboys rather than rational, objective thinkers, so don't believe them. Paladins are overwhelmingly just healers in plate, with a number of utility, stun, and self-defense abilities.

Pull @killerduki aha

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5 hours ago, Rafale said:

Pull @killerduki aha

I wouldn't recall his opinion any valid, but it's his own opinion after all , you can't change diehard anti hybrid , they are worse nightmare, especially that guy preaching is too strong as he is biggest noob in game and have no clue how to play Paladin, anyway , here is a tip regarding Paladins , coming from 2006 :

http://web.archive.org/web/20061110225817/http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.html?topicId=11931828&sid=1

This is for kids who tend to talk garbage about Paladins who doesn't play healers :

Geld's Revised Gude to the Paladin Class | 08/25/2006 02:41:56 AM UTC


Master of Group PvP: Why do they want you?
A paladin is hugely powerful in group PvP due to its unpredictability and ability to combat heal. Remember that your presence in the group should be increasing everyone’s survivability, and not just your own. Your heals are slow, but powerful, and your Blessings are cheap and powerful. Save Blessing of Protection for a teammate and remember that a rogue or mage is going to deal more damage then you can, so keep them alive to increase your group’s overall DPS. When a paladin charges an enemy player, it’s difficult to predict what will happen. Is he going to dump a Reckoning bomb? Will he get a double-crit Seal of Command proc? Is his whack going to deal negligible damage? It’s never certain, but it is very disruptive. Heal until you get Horde agro then fight until they forget about you or you die and you’ll be a group PvP giant. If you can heal and melee at the same time, all the better.

Remember that the spell Blessing of Sacrifice actually deals damage to you, so any kind of crowd-control spell that breaks when you take damage will break when you take blessing of sacrifice damage. This is a hugely powerful pvp tool… it can effectively make you immune to seduce, sheep, sap, gouge, scattershot, hunter traps, intimidating shout cower, repentance (when the expansion comes out), blind, and any other kind of incapacitate. It also increases your ability to break out of spells like Fear and various roots.

Fin.

/Kind regards Killerduki

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It's not like Legion balance where Warriors and DH dominate. But because of the issues with balance in PVP(its not that bad but some people complain) but the hardest classes to play imo would be warlock. 

 

But the skill ceiling thing is slightly different. Hunters have a higher skill ceiling than a warlock. 

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On 10/6/2017 at 11:31 AM, killerduki said:

Master of Group PvP: Why do they want you?

A paladin is hugely powerful in group PvP due to its unpredictability and ability to combat heal. Remember that your presence in the group should be increasing everyone’s survivability, and not just your own. Your heals are slow, but powerful, and your Blessings are cheap and powerful. Save Blessing of Protection for a teammate and remember that a rogue or mage is going to deal more damage then you can, so keep them alive to increase your group’s overall DPS. When a paladin charges an enemy player, it’s difficult to predict what will happen. Is he going to dump a Reckoning bomb? Will he get a double-crit Seal of Command proc? Is his whack going to deal negligible damage? It’s never certain, but it is very disruptive. Heal until you get Horde agro then fight until they forget about you or you die and you’ll be a group PvP giant. If you can heal and melee at the same time, all the better.

In group PvP reckbombs are rare, since you want to get crit four times in a row to store up that reckbomb. You usually duel or find some mob to crit you repeatedly before walking off to reckbomb someone, and I don't believe you can duel in battlegrounds, so reckbombing in group PvP is really unlikely. Double crit SoC procs are more plausible as a Paladin burst in group PvP, but the odds are very much against that kind of explosive supercrit happening since you need to crit, proc, and crit the proc. Even with a 40% crit chance you're not going to get much more than a 7% chance of exerting that kind of burst on a swing. If you have high crit and SoC up, it can be expected that you will at least land a crit or soc for okay damage, but you don't really have ways to force burst damage (in fact, Paladins have no attack abilities at all, ever since they got savaged by the nerf bat when WoW beta ended). The closest Paladins have to burst is beating someone down while they are hammered. Also, Paladins don't actually have a charge or sprint to serve as a gap-closer (engineering boots, nifty stopwatch, and swiftness potions could provide a sprint though), so when a Paladin tries to run into a fight, it's quite possible he'll be focus fired to death before he arrives in the melee simply because he spent too long in the line of fire before he could even swing at anything. At the very least Paladins should not run in first. Honestly in group PvP the last thing people want is a Paladin who pretends to be a front-liner and gets himself killed by acting like the Warrior's severely retarded cousin. He's much more valuable to the team as an indestructible healer and source of aura/cleanse/blessing.

Quote

Remember that the spell Blessing of Sacrifice actually deals damage to you, so any kind of crowd-control spell that breaks when you take damage will break when you take blessing of sacrifice damage. This is a hugely powerful pvp tool… it can effectively make you immune to seduce, sheep, sap, gouge, scattershot, hunter traps, intimidating shout cower, repentance (when the expansion comes out), blind, and any other kind of incapacitate. It also increases your ability to break out of spells like Fear and various roots.

This is true. It's very hard to keep Paladins CC'd. Locking them out of holy school (counterspell, spell lock) is probably the best CC to inflict on them (guaranteed to last full duration - 10 seconds for counterspell, 8 for spell lock), but this requires you to catch them casting, which you can't if they're just using instant casts like cleanse/blessings/holy shock/HoJ/rep. Silence also works well on Paladins, but it has a much shorter duration and it can be dispelled.

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Highest skillcap vanilla wow is druid/hunter IMO. Both classes do not scale like other "high skill cap" classes and hunters especially have a glaring weakness. Mages, rogues, and warlock have much more consistent cc and burst giving them much more control over the course of a fight.

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22 минуты назад, Xaph сказал:

Highest skillcap vanilla wow is druid/hunter IMO. Both classes do not scale like other "high skill cap" classes and hunters especially have a glaring weakness. Mages, rogues, and warlock have much more consistent cc and burst giving them much more control over the course of a fight.

^This Hunter/Drood = highest skillcap.

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Why y'all say Hunter?Other than lag which affects us all , they have a great toolkit.Scatter shot in to trap , feign death , highest Dodge , high crit , survival last skill is amazing and also deterance provided u don't get slowed.Just pop a slow immune potion and u are good to go.

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On 10/6/2017 at 5:05 PM, Aethelwulf said:

In group PvP reckbombs are rare, since you want to get crit four times in a row to store up that reckbomb. You usually duel or find some mob to crit you repeatedly before walking off to reckbomb someone, and I don't believe you can duel in battlegrounds, so reckbombing in group PvP is really unlikely. Double crit SoC procs are more plausible as a Paladin burst in group PvP, but the odds are very much against that kind of explosive supercrit happening since you need to crit, proc, and crit the proc. Even with a 40% crit chance you're not going to get much more than a 7% chance of exerting that kind of burst on a swing. If you have high crit and SoC up, it can be expected that you will at least land a crit or soc for okay damage, but you don't really have ways to force burst damage (in fact, Paladins have no attack abilities at all, ever since they got savaged by the nerf bat when WoW beta ended). The closest Paladins have to burst is beating someone down while they are hammered. Also, Paladins don't actually have a charge or sprint to serve as a gap-closer (engineering boots, nifty stopwatch, and swiftness potions could provide a sprint though), so when a Paladin tries to run into a fight, it's quite possible he'll be focus fired to death before he arrives in the melee simply because he spent too long in the line of fire before he could even swing at anything. At the very least Paladins should not run in first. Honestly in group PvP the last thing people want is a Paladin who pretends to be a front-liner and gets himself killed by acting like the Warrior's severely retarded cousin. He's much more valuable to the team as an indestructible healer and source of aura/cleanse/blessing.

This is true. It's very hard to keep Paladins CC'd. Locking them out of holy school (counterspell, spell lock) is probably the best CC to inflict on them (guaranteed to last full duration - 10 seconds for counterspell, 8 for spell lock), but this requires you to catch them casting, which you can't if they're just using instant casts like cleanse/blessings/holy shock/HoJ/rep. Silence also works well on Paladins, but it has a much shorter duration and it can be dispelled.

You do realize paladins can Seal twist on this server right? Extra damage through SoRighteousness or SoJustice disrupting stuns. That can be a lot of damage or highly annoying to those casters. But really, who is going to think that a paladin can and will reck (hehe punny) face when played well? Extra surprising no? Either way, as a paladin your primary role will never be just damage as you have amazing support capabilities that are unique and highly effective.

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Seal of Righteousness can't crit and scales off of +holy dmg ideally using very fast 1-handers while Seal of Command primarily uses high AP (admittedly it does take +20% of regular spelldmg or +29% of holy iirc) with the slowest speed to scale into supercrits (also SoC is 7 ppm and scales off of your attack's damage, so slower weapons also give you the best DPS). The only exception is weapons that can proc special attacks (which can proc their own SoC procs and even proc off of SoC's proc) but Jeklik's Crusher has a bad, non-Blizzlike procrate in Elysium I believe. I'm sure you can use Judgement of the Crusader to get a large bonus to holy damage on your target but the results are still not that potent. Twisting into a Seal of Justice (which is 4.5 ppm iirc) will also only give you a 28.5% chance of stunning (assuming you are using a 3.80 speed weapon). If SoC doubles your other seal's procs, it gets a bit better though.

Paladins just don't have good support for their attack. They're just supports in plate for the most part. Honestly I think it's idiotic that the likes of Foror and Tigole overhauled the Paladin class at launch so that they have bad attacks and bad damage (beta Paladins were a very different class), but the result of it really is that Paladins have the worst offense of all classes in WoW. Then again Tigole and Furor were the kind of tantrum-throwing Everquest players who once crashed an EQ server in protest because they were mad that EQ Paladins and Shadow Knights could also tank instead of Warriors. They really hated effective hybrids. These people were leading WoW in vanilla (because someone decided they must be really good EQ players so they should handle WoW design). It's part of the reason why the itemization in vanilla is so pigeonholed and why Druids got the short end of the stick for anything but healing, although clever gearing of blues and epics could offset a fair bit of that. They were also behind the obsessive endgame raiding and super honor grinding design that demanded no-lifing and tended to leave casual players far in the dust.

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Seal of righteousness scales with weapon speed. So a paladin with 200 spell damage would do roughly 175 damage without vengeance per swing with a 3.8 speed weapon. When you Seal twist, you get that and a chance to proc SoC which also activates SoR again. So you are effectively benefitting from 2 seal's and get an extra proc out of it. Not only that, but SoR also procs chance on hit effects giving you 100% plus SoC proc chance more procs. Seal twisting also means that you get the SoC proc chance while getting the chance to proc the SoJ stun. If SoC procs, that is double the chance.

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Seal of Righteousness's base damage scales with weapon speed, not the bonus spell damage. Spell damage is just a flat 10% added to your SoR damage (and the Improved Seal of Righteousness talent only affects base damage, not +spell damage) regardless of how fast or slow you swing it, which is why fast weapons are preferred for SoR builds with lots of +holy damage (and for Elemental Shamans who use Flametongue Weapon, which also scales at a flat 10%). A paladin with 200 spell damage swinging a 3.8 speed weapon would probably do max SoR damage and thus do 91.44 damage, with SoC it doubles up and does 182.88 extra holy damage and with Aura of Sanctity it does 201.168 damage. If you happen to have the Vengeance talent's proc active, it will do 231.3432 damage. Seal twisting into Seal of Righteousness does give you a pleasant bump in damage, but it's nowhere near as powerful as you make it out to be.

EDIT: I forgot that Seal of Righteousness does 25% more damage when you're using a 2H. I think the numbers would be 114.3 regular, 228.6 with double hits, 251.46 with sanctity aura and double hits, and 289.179 if you also happen to have Vengeance up.

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7 hours ago, Aethelwulf said:

Seal of Righteousness's base damage scales with weapon speed, not the bonus spell damage. Spell damage is just a flat 10% added to your SoR damage (and the Improved Seal of Righteousness talent only affects base damage, not +spell damage) regardless of how fast or slow you swing it, which is why fast weapons are preferred for SoR builds with lots of +holy damage (and for Elemental Shamans who use Flametongue Weapon, which also scales at a flat 10%). A paladin with 200 spell damage swinging a 3.8 speed weapon would probably do max SoR damage and thus do 91.44 damage, with SoC it doubles up and does 182.88 extra holy damage and with Aura of Sanctity it does 201.168 damage. If you happen to have the Vengeance talent's proc active, it will do 231.3432 damage. Seal twisting into Seal of Righteousness does give you a pleasant bump in damage, but it's nowhere near as powerful as you make it out to be.

A long time ago, they changed it on this server because they found video evidence that the spell damage bonus did indeed scale with weapon speed. So a 3.8 speed weapon would receive .4104 of your spell damage per swing.

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Sounds like Elysium admins got hoaxed by Paladin fanboys again. That video was from a broken private server, because I remember very clearly in vanilla that Shamans were big fans of fast 1handers because of the static 10% scaling on Flametongue Weapon and that SoR behaved the exact same way. And here is a thottbot quote proving that Paladins had static 10% scaling on Seal of Righteousness back in vanilla:

https://web.archive.org/web/20070214091944/http://www.thottbot.com:80/?sp=20293#v893406

Basically he does a bunch of math on the DPS contributions from +holy damage depending on weapon speed and points out you do more dps with a faster weapon.

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He does math. And Flametongue weapon is a completely different spell.

Is this the video you are talking about? Posted Jun 12, 2006. Shows the scaling of Righteousness accurately. If it were 10% it would be doing 5 damage instead of the 6-7 damage. If it were rank 2, 10% would be accurate. However rank 2 is only gained at level 10 not 9. Not only that, the Judgement is receiving the bonus to bring it to 25 damage which is accurate for rank 1.

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If you pay attention to the thottbot poster's math, you'll notice that the numbers clearly indicate that the spell damage does not scale to the weapon's speed. He is doing math to Seal of Righteousness. And Flametongue Weapon and Seal of Righteousness operate on the exact same mechanic.

As for the video, first of all 6-7 damage is possible with SoR and Judgement of Crusader at level 9. JoC adds 20 (10% = 2) spell damage and SoR caps out at 4.3 damage. At 6.3 it would indeed do 6 or 7 damage. And that is quite possibly a private server yes. Aside from the various youtube comments declaring it to be a private server, there is also the suspicious lack of zone chat in the video and showing off fake achievements with private server videos was definitely a thing back in the day. Just in case you were thinking WoW private servers only came after WoW vanilla, you are sorely mistaken. The first WoW private servers actually predate even WoW beta. Someone leaked an early WoW client and some folks reverse engineered it to write a server around it. Private servers have been around longer than WoW itself.

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3 hours ago, Aethelwulf said:

If you pay attention to the thottbot poster's math, you'll notice that the numbers clearly indicate that the spell damage does not scale to the weapon's speed. He is doing math to Seal of Righteousness. And Flametongue Weapon and Seal of Righteousness operate on the exact same mechanic.

As for the video, first of all 6-7 damage is possible with SoR and Judgement of Crusader at level 9. JoC adds 20 (10% = 2) spell damage and SoR caps out at 4.3 damage. At 6.3 it would indeed do 6 or 7 damage. And that is quite possibly a private server yes. Aside from the various youtube comments declaring it to be a private server, there is also the suspicious lack of zone chat in the video and showing off fake achievements with private server videos was definitely a thing back in the day. Just in case you were thinking WoW private servers only came after WoW vanilla, you are sorely mistaken. The first WoW private servers actually predate even WoW beta. Someone leaked an early WoW client and some folks reverse engineered it to write a server around it. Private servers have been around longer than WoW itself.

First of all, he was using a 2.20 speed weapon. It would never reach 4 damage, ever, because the damage doesn't fluctuate or scale with weapon speed like that.

Second, if you read the comments you would realize it was a running gag that Hogger was so tough he required a full raid. In fact the very first commentator said, " this was definitley a private server, a 40 man raid could never stop hogger, obviously gm powers." This comment definitely sets the tone for all the comments.

Third, It is a really well put together server he was playing on. Having tried a few servers back in the day, the fact that his abilities all worked and the npcs were properly placed with patrol patterns means it would have been top of the line and almost unheard of, at least of what was publicly hosted that I could find.

Fourth, The group chat is easily explained away. Servers had time zones, 50 something servers, and a lot of times, especially on low pop servers, you had dead times for zone chat. The whole of the video is only 3 min. You get that kind of dead time on elysium even with 8000+ players online.

Fifth, for a paladin there wasn't a need to fake the achievement. I killed him at level 9 also the first time after getting raped after pulling another gnoll and dying after unknowingly aggroing him.

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Ah, for the thottbot comment, this is the right one: https://web.archive.org/web/20070214091944/http://www.thottbot.com:80/?sp=20293#v798803

It spells it out in no uncertain terms that Seal of Righteousness does not scale up with weapon speed and that you should use a faster weapon for more DPS from +holy. Seal of Righteousness's spell damage coefficient did not scale with weapon speed. This is a fact.

5 hours ago, Whitewolf said:

First of all, he was using a 2.20 speed weapon. It would never reach 4 damage, ever, because the damage doesn't fluctuate or scale with weapon speed like that.

Perhaps he was on a bugged server, hm?

Quote

Second, if you read the comments you would realize it was a running gag that Hogger was so tough he required a full raid. In fact the very first commentator said, " this was definitley a private server, a 40 man raid could never stop hogger, obviously gm powers." This comment definitely sets the tone for all the comments.

I'm familiar with the jokes, but that doesn't prove this video wasn't a private server vid.

Quote

Third, It is a really well put together server he was playing on. Having tried a few servers back in the day, the fact that his abilities all worked and the npcs were properly placed with patrol patterns means it would have been top of the line and almost unheard of, at least of what was publicly hosted that I could find.

Setting working patrol patterns in a private server is extremely easy. The problem is making sure all the patrol patterns are set correctly, since that's obviously a lot of work. The idea that a private server would have working patrol patterns in the newbie leveling zone is thoroughly unimpressive.

Quote

Fourth, The group chat is easily explained away. Servers had time zones, 50 something servers, and a lot of times, especially on low pop servers, you had dead times for zone chat. The whole of the video is only 3 min. You get that kind of dead time on elysium even with 8000+ players online.

Elysium is not like vanilla. Elysium had its population surge and from there on out began to sit on an aging population. During vanilla new players were joining all the time and older players would leave or servers would have splits and offer migrations. There were always players in the newbie zones. And yet there was absolutely no one around in any of the zones while the Paladin soloed Hogger. I won't rule out the possibility of it being a vanilla server, but I find it unlikely.

Quote

Fifth, for a paladin there wasn't a need to fake the achievement. I killed him at level 9 also the first time after getting raped after pulling another gnoll and dying after unknowingly aggroing him.

People didn't just use private servers for faking achievements with cheats. They also used it to amuse themselves with solo play and just posting up solo achievements, a decent number of which employed bugged private server mechanics. Soloing hogger is definitely something I could see someone doing on an empty private server before they get bored.

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55 minutes ago, Aethelwulf said:

Ah, for the thottbot comment, this is the right one: https://web.archive.org/web/20070214091944/http://www.thottbot.com:80/?sp=20293#v798803

It spells it out in no uncertain terms that Seal of Righteousness does not scale up with weapon speed and that you should use a faster weapon for more DPS from +holy. Seal of Righteousness's spell damage coefficient did not scale with weapon speed. This is a fact.

Perhaps he was on a bugged server, hm?

I'm familiar with the jokes, but that doesn't prove this video wasn't a private server vid.

Setting working patrol patterns in a private server is extremely easy. The problem is making sure all the patrol patterns are set correctly, since that's obviously a lot of work. The idea that a private server would have working patrol patterns in the newbie leveling zone is thoroughly unimpressive.

Elysium is not like vanilla. Elysium had its population surge and from there on out began to sit on an aging population. During vanilla new players were joining all the time and older players would leave or servers would have splits and offer migrations. There were always players in the newbie zones. And yet there was absolutely no one around in any of the zones while the Paladin soloed Hogger. I won't rule out the possibility of it being a vanilla server, but I find it unlikely.

People didn't just use private servers for faking achievements with cheats. They also used it to amuse themselves with solo play and just posting up solo achievements, a decent number of which employed bugged private server mechanics. Soloing hogger is definitely something I could see someone doing on an empty private server before they get bored.

You are assuming it is a private server without anything to back it up. A video is harder evidence than a comment on thottbot. If it is as you say it should be even easier to find video evidence contradicting the video i posted.

You seem very fixated that there wasn't any one else visible in 2 small areas of fairly low traffic on a server that has a capacity of some where around 2000 or less where the running time of visible area was less than 2 and a half minutes. You seem to think that the population density should be that some one has something to say in general chat or is visible at least once every minute. This isn't the Barrens where you have 30 levels of content.

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