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hotdwarfsixpack

The Case for 'Gummycraft' in Raiding on the New Release

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if this server is called progressive please make it progressive not a trivial content farmshit. Current content should be challenging, like always was in vanilla/tbc. Old content can be nerfed after new releases, but current  always must be challenging.

 

Played some private vanilla servers and all had same problem - ez mode endgame. Leveling until 60 is awesome but after that, it feels like game over. There is no point farming pre raid gear, cuz you don't need it for progression. All you need is to get 40 ppl in to raid and snowball through content. The problem isn't only items and talents. Damage calculations of some skills completely different. For example mage frostbolts on early patches was able to hit ~500 on rag ( the proof - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cNdZWijuty4) while on 1.12 private servers u can hit more on level 50... 

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I guarantee you that if you are playing vanilla only for raiding you won't last long.. time investment and raid prep just so happens to be what Vanilla is all about so you might wana check in on that.

 

As for the raids, things will be easier early on because of our 1.12 talents. Nobodys is disputing this. It doesn't matter though.

 

The raids themselves scale in difficulty regardless and our talents will stay the same.

 

It will be fine.

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Raid the easier raids with less people. Solved.

Gives you more loot per person by % as well.

A 30 man MC non world buffed is prob the difficulty you are looking for, or a good starter.

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I think the obvious solution to anyone who wants things more difficult is to make them more difficult yourself. Ever try to clear MC with 20-30 instead of a full 40?  Maybe try to 10 man AQ20. Perhaps you could try doing BWL without any resto druids. Maybe take on some of those raid without any add-ons. I don't see a need to edit the game, its a just a matter of self-discipline to make things harder for yourself or guild. 

Edited by Surfaced

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Short manning MC is common once everybody has their items from there.     Also consider splitting your 40 man Onxyia raid into 2x 20 man raids.  Double your chances at Shard of the Scale, and Vis'Kags per 5 days, and the tank knockback mechanic comes into play more.

 

We used to 18-22 man it in 2005/2006 on retail after we "got gud" and new talents were out made it easier, let's you know who fails at Onxyia and been getting carried for months on end when they die from the first deep breath EVERY TIME.

 

 

AQ20 10 man is a bit of an extreme, though you have the right idea.   15 man AQ20 and ZG.

 

 

Though you get to a point where you are either farming these 20 mans for rep/tokens or simply helping your fellow guild members get a few select pieces of gear.  With AQ20/40 out there is a lot of content to do per raid week.

 

Depending on the reset, in 7 days you can do MC x 2, BWL x 2, AQ40 x 2, ZG x2 or 3, AQ20 x 2 or 3, Onxyia x 1 or 2.

 

So depending on resets you can do a max of 11 to 14 raids in a 7 day period, that is a lot to clear and even the people advocating for Challenge challenge challenge will be doing their best to speed clear these to minimize the amount of actual days needed to invest per week to clear everything.

 

Your challenges will be with the later part of AQ and a vast majority of Naxx.    Consider MC / BWL / ZG as test for preparing yourself for the top challenges ahead.  Push yourself, weed out the baddies, and establish a core that you can rely on. 

 

Don't forget to have fun.

Edited by Undertanker

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Do you still not see the significance of newer talents making current content easy?

Where did I say that they don't?

 

Please, point out where I said "1.12 talents do not make the content easy".

 

1.12 talents are the bigger part of the reason why we won't ever see "true difficulty" on private servers. I made that pretty clear towards the end of my post. Even if we somehow had patch 1.1 talents, things would not be that much harder because we'd still be able to easily theorycraft the best specs and know where/how to get the best itemized gear and know the raid strats perfectly and such.

 

1.12 talents + average player skill today being infinitely higher than it was back in 2005 + easy access to information about the game.

 

We cannot reach that "true difficulty" without wiping everyone's memories of WoW and somehow acquiring Blizzard's patch 1.1 server cores/scripting.

 

 

 

“Facts do not cease to exist because they are ignored.” 

― Aldous HuxleyComplete Essays 2, 1926-29

Oh wow, you quoted someone. So smart. I am defeated by your incredible intelligence, O Great And Powerful Smart One.

 

 

we try because we want what the real experience was, right?

The problem is, "the real experience" is incredibly difficult to attain, and has so many variables that people will be endlessly arguing over whether it is truly "the real experience" or not. To try and make a custom vanilla that emulates "2004 difficulty" would be a massive headache all around. That's why nobody does it. We don't have solid information on pre-1.4 talents, gear, spell values and mechanics, so trying to re-create it would be a crapshoot that would cause endless arguing over whether it's correct or not.

 

If you want that difficulty so badly, then go raid MC in full greens with an improper talent spec. That should be pretty close to what it's like.

Edited by gotmilk0112

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Bring less people to the raid/wear non-optimal gear pieces/don't use buffs/don't use talents properly (that's a first, kudos, gotmilk, you've found a new level of rock bottom)/let your 4 yr old nephew click buttons instead, all these non-suggestions need to stop. Kronos "fanboys" on their forums always had this kneejerk reaction when people suggested buffing content, know what kind of reputation Kronos raids have now in the vanilla community? You guys honestly seem scared of change, as if improving the vanilla emulation scene to be closer to mimicking the real experience is a scary idea for you, or something you cannot picture. 

 

I am defeated by your incredible intelligence

 

So, gotmilk. Let me get this straight; 1.12 talents do make content easy, but buffing them won't make them approach "true difficulty"? I ... don't ... even. What the вау is even "true difficulty"? Difficulty with 1.1 talents? "Even if we somehow had patch 1.1 talents, things would not be that much harder", guess not. 

 

Why do you guys play vanilla WoW if you don't want to be part of emulating the real experience? Think of buffing methods, not the idea of buffing. 

 

The following are just a glimpse of the array of tools Elysium Team and all other developers have in their toolbox. 

  • HP/Dmg boost: Increase duration of fight, force gearing to be more critical (defensive tanks, endurance heals/dps), increase effectiveness of time-based phase mechanics (like Ragnaros submerge)
  • Altered timers: Timers applying phase change/other mechanics can be made more unpredictable with ~1-10 second time change rolls. Making boss timer addons less useful. 
  • Increased boss ability frequency: Boss abilities could occur more often than the classic tuned version. Eg. more Wrath of Ragnaros.
  • Increased range of boss abilities: For example Magmadar fear can now also hit hunters/max-ranged dps/heals. Forcing a fear-break rotation to keep the MT up. 
  • Increased effectiveness of add spawns: HP/dmg/abilities or just plain more adds to deal with. Eg. Sons of Ragnaros/Razorgore Phase 1 increased orcs/dragonkins to force kiting strats like retail, instead of killing everything with 1.12 talents.
  • Talents nerfed until revamped patch: Eg. PvE Fury DPS (currently top DPS in 1.12) did not exist prior to patch 1.6 when Bloodthirst was redesigned. In 1.12, BT could be nerfed to scale less with AP to mimic the uselessness of this original 31-talent point skill so DPS warriors use Arms spec, as they did from patch 1.1-1.6. Same thing with Prot Warrior being the best tank, nerf Shield Slam so Prot Warriors don't go deep into the prot talent tree like they did prior to revamp patch.

These are ideas I came up within 10 minutes. Admins/Devs who have invested a lot more into the scene could think of way better methods. It's a question of whether people want them to try and emulate the "true difficulty" or just accept the current level of tuning all recent private servers have accepted as standard tuning. I highly suggest you be part of the movement that wants vanilla private server generation to move into the next level - to come closer and closer to the experience we all loved back in 2005-06, if you have experienced it back then - instead of being people who hold it back.  

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I guarantee you that if you are playing vanilla only for raiding you won't last long.. time investment and raid prep just so happens to be what Vanilla is all about so you might wana check in on that.

 

As for the raids, things will be easier early on because of our 1.12 talents. Nobodys is disputing this. It doesn't matter though.

 

The raids themselves scale in difficulty regardless and our talents will stay the same.

 

It will be fine.

 

If you consider fine being guilds leveling to 60 and killing Ragnaros within 3 weeks of new server drop, then your description of fine differs from mine.

 

 

Raid the easier raids with less people. Solved.

Gives you more loot per person by % as well.

A 30 man MC non world buffed is prob the difficulty you are looking for, or a good starter.

 

Your idea that we should just raid with 30- people is proof that you subconsciously agree that the raiding is far too easy.

 

I think the obvious solution to anyone who wants things more difficult is to make them more difficult yourself. Ever try to clear MC with 20-30 instead of a full 40?  Maybe try to 10 man AQ20. Perhaps you could try doing BWL without any resto druids. Maybe take on some of those raid without any add-ons. I don't see a need to edit the game, its a just a matter of self-discipline to make things harder for yourself or guild. 

 

I think the more obvious solution is to just buff the content so everyone has a harder time.

 

Short manning MC is common once everybody has their items from there.     Also consider splitting your 40 man Onxyia raid into 2x 20 man raids.  Double your chances at Shard of the Scale, and Vis'Kags per 5 days, and the tank knockback mechanic comes into play more.

 

We used to 18-22 man it in 2005/2006 on retail after we "got gud" and new talents were out made it easier, let's you know who fails at Onxyia and been getting carried for months on end when they die from the first deep breath EVERY TIME.

 

 

AQ20 10 man is a bit of an extreme, though you have the right idea.   15 man AQ20 and ZG.

 

 

Though you get to a point where you are either farming these 20 mans for rep/tokens or simply helping your fellow guild members get a few select pieces of gear.  With AQ20/40 out there is a lot of content to do per raid week.

 

Depending on the reset, in 7 days you can do MC x 2, BWL x 2, AQ40 x 2, ZG x2 or 3, AQ20 x 2 or 3, Onxyia x 1 or 2.

 

So depending on resets you can do a max of 11 to 14 raids in a 7 day period, that is a lot to clear and even the people advocating for Challenge challenge challenge will be doing their best to speed clear these to minimize the amount of actual days needed to invest per week to clear everything.

 

Your challenges will be with the later part of AQ and a vast majority of Naxx.    Consider MC / BWL / ZG as test for preparing yourself for the top challenges ahead.  Push yourself, weed out the baddies, and establish a core that you can rely on. 

 

Don't forget to have fun.

 

"Short manning MC is common once everybody has their items from there. "

 

Yes, when everybody has their items from there it's whatever. I'm talking about buffing content to make the barrier to entry for skill higher.

 

The problem is, "the real experience" is incredibly difficult to attain, and has so many variables that people will be endlessly arguing over whether it is truly "the real experience" or not. To try and make a custom vanilla that emulates "2004 difficulty" would be a massive headache all around. That's why nobody does it. We don't have solid information on pre-1.4 talents, gear, spell values and mechanics, so trying to re-create it would be a crapshoot that would cause endless arguing over whether it's correct or not.

 

If you want that difficulty so badly, then go raid MC in full greens with an improper talent spec. That should be pretty close to what it's like.

 

Plenty of servers modify values but they aren't as effective because they don't run gear regression, or have bugs that lead to massive damage boosts that overcome those values.

 

Already raided and cleared MC in 50%+ greens. It is not hard.

 

What's your real reasoning behind not wanting content to be harder? The massive headache part I don't believe.

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I don't think you have enough quotes. Should add more.

 

Could easily turn this into a shitflinging contest with what I think your real reasoning is for being against this, but I'll refrain since that doesn't seem productive

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Please read my entire post before writing back, I even addressed you in specific. People do want vanilla wow. As it stands with the current setup, it is drastically easier than vanilla wow due to the talent setup (ignoring the information available to us on every encounter). My idea to bring that difficulty up to what was experienced during vanilla wow at that time period was a buff to a raid's damage/armor/resistance/etc. We can't make ourselves do the gimped damage/healing/threat that 1.4 talent trees had, but we can bring the mobs stats to a higher level to simulate that difficulty. It could even be reverted after we progress in patches so players like yourselves could clear the content!

 

 

Your ignorance / stupidity is nauseating.

 

I did read your entire post (unfortunately).

 

As someone who actually played and raided vanilla and cleared most of AQ40, I'm well aware of  how broken certain spec's / classes were for a good portion of vanilla. 

 

But I'll repeat what I said previously, you fail to grasp the very basic driving force behind this project. But don't worry, I can spell it out for you. I'll even use crayons so you can better grasp what I'm trying to convey if you like.

 

Nost isn't about making (what you deem) challenging content to today's playerbase in a vanilla environment. 

 

It's exists solely as a time capsule, a way to play a game that no longer exists. 

 

Honestly, if they implemented your (retarded) suggestions, I'd leave (like I assume many others would). This wouldn't be the vision of what Nostalrius set out to be and what made this server so massively popular over the literally thousands that currently exist, it'd just become another faceless private server with better than average scripting.

 

But I can take some small comfort in that the Nostalrius staff that joined Elysium understand this and would never allow the implementation of such rampant stupidity.

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Your ignorance / stupidity is nauseating.

 

I did read your entire post (unfortunately).

 

As someone who actually played and raided vanilla and cleared most of AQ40, I'm well aware of  how broken certain spec's / classes were for a good portion of vanilla. 

 

But I'll repeat what I said previously, you fail to grasp the very basic driving force behind this project. But don't worry, I can spell it out for you. I'll even use crayons so you can better grasp what I'm trying to convey if you like.

 

Nost isn't about making (what you deem) challenging content to today's playerbase in a vanilla environment. 

 

It's exists solely as a time capsule, a way to play a game that no longer exists. 

 

Honestly, if they implemented your (retarded) suggestions, I'd leave (like I assume many others would). This wouldn't be the vision of what Nostalrius set out to be and what made this server so massively popular over the literally thousands that currently exist, it'd just become another faceless private server with better than average scripting.

 

But I can take some small comfort in that the Nostalrius staff that joined Elysium understand this and would never allow the implementation of such rampant stupidity.

 

Don't cry because I apparently hit the nail on the head by implying you wouldn't be able to handle it. lmao at the "as someone who actually played vanilla wow". that doesn't qualify you for anything bro. And no, it wasn't "certain specs". It was just about every ваууing spec that sucked. Or if it wasn't the spec, it was other stupid фекал like hit rating not benefiting dual wielding dps.

 

Nost exists as a way to experience the difficulty of vanilla WoW when it was current. If it were just a time capsule, they wouldn't regress the gear, they'd just crank out a regular 1.12 server with all content released.

 

Take comfort in knowing you might find some raid guild to carry you through mind numbingly boring content at every tier.

 

hey am I hard like you now?

cfzuFSH.jpg

 

Today I learned; offering alternatives to an "issue" means you are against it.

 

If instead of running a half marathon I said I wanted to run a full marathon and you told me "why don't you just jog backwards the entire way?" I'd assume you didn't want me to run the full marathon.

Edited by hotdwarfsixpack

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hotdwarfsixpack, you're a toxic idiot.

 

 

Nost exists as a way to experience the difficulty of vanilla WoW when it was current.

 

 

From your limited perspective, perhaps. And you're entitled to your opinion and interpretation.

 

But not for the people who created Nost.

Or the Elysium dev team for that matter.

And there's is the only opinion that matters. Thankfully. Because you're a ваууing idiot.

 

This project is solely a way to play a game that no longer exists in it's current format, in the most complete and un-broken way possible.

 

Don't like it? Start your own project, or just fu-ck off, I honestly don't care. 

 

I'll repeat this, since your reading comprehension is ваууing awful.

 

Honestly, if they implemented your (retarded) suggestions, I'd leave (like I assume many others would). This wouldn't be the vision of what Nostalrius set out to be and what made this server so massively popular over the literally thousands that currently exist, it'd just become another faceless private server with better than average scripting.

 

 

 

There's a reason why these shitty custom servers (that you're trying to turn Nost into, you ваууing idiot) that you're referencing only have a tiny fraction of the playerbase and popularity that Nost enjoys. You think Nost got this popular just because it has good scripting?

 

I can only assume that you're trolling, because honestly no one is that retarded.

Edited by Frylord

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hotdwarfsixpack, you're a toxic idiot.

 

 

 

From your limited perspective, perhaps. And you're entitled to your opinion and interpretation.

 

But not for the people who created Nost.

Or the Elysium dev team for that matter.

And there's is the only opinion that matters. Thankfully. Because you're a ваууing idiot.

 

This project is solely a way to play a game that no longer exists in it's current format, in the most complete and un-broken way possible.

 

Don't like it? Start your own project, or just fu-ck off, I honestly don't care. 

 

I'll repeat this, since your reading comprehension is ваууing awful.

 

 

 

There's a reason why these shitty custom servers (that you're trying to turn Nost into, you ваууing idiot) that you're referencing only have a tiny fraction of the playerbase and popularity that Nost enjoys. You think Nost got this popular just because it has good scripting?

 

I can only assume that you're trolling, because honestly no one is that retarded.

 

So what you're saying is your interpretation of the team's goals is the only correct interpretation, and everyone who interprets their goals differently is a retard? Sweet logic man.

 

Nost got popular for one reason--timing. It wasn't the scripting--trust me on that one. It came at a time when everyone was sick of Emerald Dream and ready to jump ship. Guilds who had already left Feenix/refused to play on Feenix had been waiting to play on a vanilla server for a while at that point and then Kronos announced itself as a viable alternative. Guilds started coming out of the woodworks and signing up on there, and then Nostalrius decided to release a month earlier than Kronos and all the guilds ended up moving there because waiting a month is an eternity for vets at this point. You had guilds like Ridin Dirty, judgement/team plague, dreamstate, grizzly, exiled, massivus, mcst, etc all coming together in one giant thunderdome that got bigger as the release date grew closer because we all wanted to settle grudges from previous servers. The population snowballed after a surprisingly stable launch.

Edited by hotdwarfsixpack

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Guys we need to remember that BWL and particularly MC were raids specifically designed for people who had never raided before.... As previously stated they are now raids private server players have cleared on multiple differing servers multiple differing times.

 

AQ40 saw the introduction of fights that incorporated more than one boss to give raiders experience in raid cohesion and add a new element to raid dynamics...

 

Naxx then took the difficulty to a whole new level, for the time raid mechanics but another factor was the unforgiving nature of those mechanics.... for example in the early wings of Naxx take Maxxenas webbing (if people were not 80% health + when webbed = dead) and Heigans eruption (= dead if touched outside of MT). this unforgiving nature had never been experienced before...

 

Jes i still remember my retail guild wiping on the first trash mobs in Naxx omw to Inst Raz (the gargoyles) , a guild that had been clearing BWL and clearing to Cthun for months and we still wiped on the first trash mobs... Imagine how that felt

 

The jump in difficulty between BWL and AQ up too C'Thun and Naxxramas cannot be understated and hopefully its replicated here because it has not been replicated on any other private server

 

EDIT: So in short if Naxx is scripted correctly there is no need to add additional mechanics / HP to increase its difficulty 

Edited by Tancred

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This community is already starting to be toxic.

it never stopped beeing

 

technically its not the community, its just the loudmouths on the forum. most are chill dudes, forum heroes are cunts.

Edited by Travolta

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it never stopped beeing

 

technically its not the community, its just the loudmouths on the forum. most are chill dudes, forum heroes are cunts.

"people with opinions other then mine are cunts"

News at 11.

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The jump in difficulty between BWL and AQ up too C'Thun and Naxxramas cannot be understated and hopefully its replicated here because it has not been replicated on any other private server

 

Preach! 

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