Jump to content
Sign in to follow this  
Hexygon

Lupos vs Broken Tooth - BM Hunter data

Recommended Posts

Lupos averaged 145 dps. Broken Tooth 115.

This was a pain in the ass. I feel dumber for having done this.  Give me reputation please!

Broken Tooth and Lupos level 60.  I looked at their dps soloing (pet did all the damage) level 56 beasts with 3300 armor. These mobs did not have any dps debuffs like stuns or slows.    I have 5 points in frenzy, 1 point in bestial discipline. After each kill, I let the pets regen to 100% focus. Bite 8 and Claw 8 were used, along with Furious Howl 4.  (BT only gets one bite per mob before claw takes over.)  Growl was turned off.  Zeth server. Lupos is doing shadow damage in this patch.

 Lupos                        Broken Tooth
183 103 119 136        113 109 115 124
131 195 117 159        115 113 104 121
174 158 151 165        118 116 114 120
123 110 160 155        122 93  122 130
153 175 111 123        119 116 105 118
2901/20 = 145            2307/20=115

Edited by Hexygon

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

On Anathema Lupos doesn't do shadow dmg anymore. On any pre 1.9 patch Lupos is supposed to be +/- 30% better pet option (for dps) from anything else. Scaling with shadow vuln(not stealing stacks), CoS and nightfall led to some funny crit spikes on bosses (my highest was 2k+ hit on chromag... from pet... sick). That paired with furious howl utility made it best raiding pet but well its nerfed to the ground in 1.9 and anathema delivered those nerfs in blizzlike fashion so keep that in mind on other servers that Lupos will become redundant starting from war effort patch. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

In a raid environment the damage difference between a cat and Lupos is marginal. There's going to be so many negative armor debuffs on bosses so they essentially do the same damage. Lupos doesn't shine until ZG patch where you have 16 debuffs for sPriest debuffs, imp. shadowbolt, curse of shadows and nightfall. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, gotmilk0112 said:

That and, you don't want to use Lupos in raids anyways, since his melee attacks will eat stacks of warlock's shadowbolt debuff.

Wrong, again.

Something you will often hear people say about Lupos is that it will lower your raids DPS because it eats up Warlock's Improved Shadow Bolt debuffs however that is completely nonsense. 
Yes, Lupos eats the debuff but that doesn't change anything... Warlocks already have huge threat issues as it is, so they won't be able to benefit from the debuff properly because it will only force them to stop DPS'ing even faster and then wait for the tanks to catch up on threat so they can start DPSing again.
Hunters do not have this issue due to Feign Death every 30 sec.
Not to mention that if Lupus isn't there to "eat" the Improved Shadow Bolt debuffs, then there will be a lot more overlapping of the debuff. I.E the debuff goes to waste.

On Nost 1.0 as Horde (With a broken rage formula in favor to the tank) I know for a fact that a tank with Windfury + STR totem, no matter how skilled the tank was it wasn't possible do more TPS than an "all in'ing" good geared Warlock. 
For alliance, BoS (+ BoM and BoK on the tank) might make it possible for a tank to do more TPS under perfect conditions, although I don't know since I don't have any experience raiding as alliance.

You do however also have to consider boss mechanics (Especially threat wiping mechanics) and human error etc which is a huge factor that Hunters do not have to worry about any where near as much as Warlocks have to because of Feign Death every 30 sec, which is why it's not a bad thing for Lupos to "help" warlocks stay below the tanks threat so they don't have to stop DPSing (Which is a DPS loss for everyone since the debuff just goes to waste in that case), not to mention that ISB isn't the only debuff that increases Lupos' damage which is another good reason as to why using him is good for the raid.
A fully buffed Lupos attacking a target with all the debuffs active can do up to 180-200 dps on its own when BM+MM specced... which is quite a lot.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Only place I ever see warlocks have threat issues is on trash if they get too many crits in a row.

 

Having multiple Luposes eating all the shadow debuff stacks is a pretty big DPS loss on bosses.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, gotmilk0112 said:

Only place I ever see warlocks have threat issues is on trash if they get too many crits in a row.

And why do you think that is the case on trash only?... On trash people are actually all inning - on boss fights they take caution to the threat because they know that if they aggro they will wipe the raid.

As said, on nost 1.0 it was not possible for a tank to produce enough TPS to let a warlock go all in on DPS... Especially not when considering boss mechanics.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
32 minutes ago, Trolling Faggot said:

And why do you think that is the case on trash only?... On trash people are actually all inning

....or, because trash fights are much shorter and a string of crits close to the start can pull aggro.

 

Whereas on bosses, you have people waiting for a few sunders before starting.

 

Not sure what terrible tanks you were raiding with, that found it "impossible" to hold aggro against Warlocks. If you're on Alliance, they should have Salvation, and if you're on Horde, they should be in group with a shaman giving them the threat reduction totem.

Edited by gotmilk0112

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
35 minutes ago, gotmilk0112 said:

....or, because trash fights are much shorter and a string of crits close to the start can pull aggro.

 

Whereas on bosses, you have people waiting for a few sunders before starting.

 

Not sure what terrible tanks you were raiding with, that found it "impossible" to hold aggro against Warlocks. If you're on Alliance, they should have Salvation, and if you're on Horde, they should be in group with a shaman giving them the threat reduction totem.

Like I've said several times now. No matter the skill of the warrior it is not possible to do more TPS than an all inning Warlock. Here's even a threat spreadsheet for you to use if you want https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1h-SytJFBcXb6h7wBF4bJroDQ37EluMc438Cvk2OVST8/edit#gid=0

Trash being a shorter fight dosn't change anything when the Warlock is able to do more TPS regardless. No matter how long of a fight it is, he will be able to catch up at some point.

There's limited Shamans in a raid group.You only use tranq totems for fights with threat reduction mechanics and windfury for the rest.

edit:
There's also a reason as to why all alliance Warlocks are so much higher on DPS compared to Horde warlocks - they're holding back due to threat.

Edited by Cruzix

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
10 hours ago, Cruzix said:

Lupos eats the debuff

No, it doesn't. The whole argument is totally inconsequential, because its entire premise is false. Lupos's attacks pre 1.9 did not consume Improved Shadow Bolt. 

Check this thread out, where this was reported: 

On 2/2/2017 at 3:26 AM, Morathe said:

Tested lupos with warlock yesterday on elite mobs same level as my lupos (41 at that time). Results are as follows:

-Lupos benefit from Curse of Shadows

-Lupos benefit from Improved Shadowbolt proc

-Lupos DONT consume Impr. Shadowbolt stacks

I encourage anyone playing (on a server/realm where he deals Shadow damage) to test it for yourselves.

Edited by Fisher

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
16 hours ago, Hexygon said:

Lupos averaged 145 dps. Broken Tooth 115.

What you didn't take in to consideration is that BT has a 1.0 Attack Speed. Lupos is 2.0

This means that BT literally gets two attacks to Lupos' one.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, Lehman Russ said:

This means that BT literally gets two attacks to Lupos' one.

Which, before talents, should make literally zero difference. Pets of the same species have normalized DPS values. Granted, wolves and cats aren't the same species, and there would be variations in their DPS (as a result of their differing stats), but the attack speed is not a factor.

However, I do agree that the math is faulty, because it doesn't account for the attack speed. It would be more accurate to state that, on average, Lupos hits ~21% harder because Lupos ignores armor. The values stated, 145 for Lupos compared to 115 for Broken Tooth, are not DPS, but rather average hits. Since Lupos takes exactly twice as long as Broken Tooth to deal the same number of attacks, Broken Tooth's DPS is actually superior, given these values, which is expected, given that cats are the highest DPS pet species.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
16 minutes ago, Fisher said:

The values stated, 145 for Lupos compared to 115 for Broken Tooth, are not DPS, but rather average hits.

That's what I was aiming at with my post. And yeah you can't (PvP wise) mitigate Lupos damage with armor as you stated. You need Shadow Resistance for that.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 hours ago, Fisher said:

No, it doesn't. The whole argument is totally inconsequential, because its entire premise is false. Lupos's attacks pre 1.9 did not consume Improved Shadow Bolt. 

Check this thread out, where this was reported: 

I encourage anyone playing (on a server/realm where he deals Shadow damage) to test it for yourselves.

Yes, that's the case on Elysium and I should probably have made that clear my bad. 

However on servers that actually have this working correctly, he will consume the debuffs.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
55 minutes ago, Cruzix said:

However on servers that actually have this working correctly, he will consume the debuffs.

It makes sense to me that it should, but apparently it doesn't. I'm not sure how it was in vanilla, but it wouldn't surprise me that it didn't consume stacks in vanilla, either. I don't know for sure one way or the other, and I won't purport to know.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
15 hours ago, gotmilk0112 said:

Only place I ever see warlocks have threat issues is on trash if they get too many crits in a row.

 

Having multiple Luposes eating all the shadow debuff stacks is a pretty big DPS loss on bosses.

Gotmilk I've been testing Lupos with friendly warlock on "Servant of blablabla" (mobs in Blasted Lands that can't die im sure u're familiar). Tested Lupos synergy with warlock in and out and results are as follows: Lupos DON'T eat the vulnerability stacks but benefit from it (its clearly a bug but again it DON'T eat those stacks), it benefits from Curse of Shadows it doesn't benefit from Curse of Recklessness. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 hours ago, lineupofpeace said:

Wait does this really not account for attack speed?

For pets of the same type, faster attack speed will reduce the damage of each hit.

 

A cat with 2.0 speed and 1.2 speed will both do the same DPS.

 

Hunters prefer faster attack speeds to ensure that Frenzy has 100% uptime, and to get more spell pushback against casters in PvP.

Edited by gotmilk0112

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, gotmilk0112 said:

For pets of the same type, faster attack speed will reduce the damage of each hit.

 

A cat with 2.0 speed and 1.2 speed will both do the same DPS.

 

Hunters prefer faster attack speeds to ensure that Frenzy has 100% uptime, and to get more spell pushback against casters in PvP.

 

I get that, I'm referring to the test in the OP. Is the higher DPS reported for Lupos after accounting for attack speed?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 hours ago, lineupofpeace said:

I get that, I'm referring to the test in the OP. Is the higher DPS reported for Lupos after accounting for attack speed?

No, it doesn't. It's a the mean of all the attacks' damage. Only 20 attacks were made with each pet; attack speed was not considered (apparently).

3 hours ago, gotmilk0112 said:

What "attack speed" are you talking about?

Lupos has an attack speed of 2.0. Broken Tooth has an attack speed of 1.0. Broken Tooth does the same number of attacks in exactly half the time.

If Broken Tooth does one attack per second, then taking the total damage and dividing it by the number of attacks made (before you consider talents) is accurate. However, Lupos can only deal half an attack a second, or one attack every two seconds. Therefore, taking the total damage and dividing it by the number of attacks made is not an accurate way to calculate DPS.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'm not sure how OP responds to this, but I'm pretty sure Lupos does a lot more DPS than any cat. When i lvl up my Lupos to 60, I can provide the data myself, but even on lvl 47 he hits incredibly hard with 20/31/0 spec

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

A few of you are confused on some basic concepts.  If a pet attacks faster, it attacks lighter.  A slower attack speed, results in higher damage per hit to compensate.  Damage per second is the same for all members of the same family, regardless of their attack speed. 

On 3/13/2017 at 3:58 PM, gotmilk0112 said:

For pets of the same type, faster attack speed will reduce the damage of each hit.

 

A cat with 2.0 speed and 1.2 speed will both do the same DPS.

 

Hunters prefer faster attack speeds to ensure that Frenzy has 100% uptime, and to get more spell pushback against casters in PvP.

This is correct ^^

On 3/12/2017 at 7:13 PM, Lehman Russ said:

What you didn't take in to consideration is that BT has a 1.0 Attack Speed. Lupos is 2.0

This means that BT literally gets two attacks to Lupos' one.

 My numbers represent pet damage per second, per mob.  Not hits! Broken Tooth hits much faster, but Lupos hits much harder.  However, your comment on attack speed does get to the core of my message.  Broken Tooth has an advantage from a BM hunter's perspective, because more hits = more crits = more frenzy = more damage.  Broken tooth has nearly 100% uptime on Frenzy, Lupos does not.  My experiment was meant to determine whether Lupos ignoring armor is better than the extra Frenzy uptime of Broken Tooth.

The results say that while acounting for everything, Lupos does 20% more overall damage on a target with 3300 armor.

 

Edit: If you want to see what I'm talking about, go to your  pet tab, and mouse over Damage.  You'll see attack speed, Damage, and Damage per second.  Damage per second is identical on Broken Tooth, and Humar, and Starving Mountain Lion and any other random cat of the same level. The other two numbers change. 

If you are NOT  beastmaster, then frenzy does not apply and Lupos will be even stronger, comparatively speaking.

Edited by Hexygon

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Armed with this knowledge, you can now smile when you see someone enrage a black or white or purple tiger, because you know that they tamed an inferior pet, because they want to pat it on the head and tell it how pretty it is.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 3/13/2017 at 9:36 AM, Fisher said:

It makes sense to me that it should, but apparently it doesn't. I'm not sure how it was in vanilla, but it wouldn't surprise me that it didn't consume stacks in vanilla, either. I don't know for sure one way or the other, and I won't purport to know.

Hmm I've tried to find some video proof of it consuming ISB on retail vanilla but without luck. I weren't even able to find any conversations about it from retail vanilla which kinda makes me think that you might be right that it never did consume it.. hmm.

By logic it SHOULD consume ISB since it is shadow damage however there's lots of things that doesn't make sense in vanilla so this might be "one of those things" - an example would be that on retail vanilla some AP buffs wouldn't give RAP even if the stat was made to benefit both melee and ranged. (Those AP buffs being Fengus' FerocityRallying Cry of the Dragonslayer and Juju Might)

So if anyone got some proof of if Lupos should consume ISB or shouldnt then please let me know

Edited by Cruzix

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
Sign in to follow this  

×