radhaz

What makes a feral bear a better bear?

18 posts in this topic

So I've read through the Pre-raid BiS and some other threads discussing feral mechanics if you will and I haven't come across anything conclusive stating the best path for most viability as a bear tank.

What should matter most:
AC (10k since past 10k has a diminishing return?)
Stamina
Dodge (how much though, is there a diminishing return)
Hit % (Cap is 9% and we gain threat from our strikes, do they work when they "miss" if we're under the hit cap?)
Defense (I know we can't come near the def cap so does this matter at all?)

Just looking for a discussion or a link to a prior discussion or reference where I could learn more about this. I focus more on being feral dps but from time to time have to O/T and want to make a better O/T set for when the time comes.

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Armor doesn't have diminishing returns. That's a myth perpetrated by people who don't understand how to do math. It does have a hard cap of 75% damage reduction, however, so you cap out at ~21k armor for 75% reduction vs level 63 mobs and ~17.5k vs level 60 mobs. Keep in mind priests and shaman will dramatically affect your armor if they're healing you.

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18 hours ago, Lorilay said:

Armor doesn't have diminishing returns. That's a myth perpetrated by people who don't understand how to do math. It does have a hard cap of 75% damage reduction, however, so you cap out at ~21k armor for 75% reduction vs level 63 mobs and ~17.5k vs level 60 mobs. Keep in mind priests and shaman will dramatically affect your armor if they're healing you.

What effects do Priests and Shamans have on armor? I don't play either of those classes.

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Good to know about AC so how (in your opinion) should stats be prioritized when putting  together a tank set?

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Defense increases the chance that you dodge, block and parry by 0.04% per skill. So where as 8 defense would give .96% avoidance to a warrior it only gives .32% to a druid making it pretty terrible. It also reduces the chances you get crit by .04%, which is why warriors try to get 140 extra so they never get crit, but there isn't any leather gear with defense so it's not possible for you. 

The order you listed them in is the priority as far as I understand. Armor is king, followed by stamina and then dodge. Hit is good to have if you aren't giving up much in return. For example I used to use devilsaur set when tanking 5 mans. The only real important slots are warden staff/dm mace, enchanting trinket, ony attune trinket and that protection ring with armor. Other than that you can prioritize however you want. 

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Bear is a lot more complicated than people give it credit for. The difference between a good bear and a bad bear can be measured by the gear in your bags and how you use that gear to approach a fight. Your strength is in your versatility. If you try to take a "one size fits all" approach to being a bear then you're just a strictly worse Warrior and there's no reason to bring you to a raid.

Bring Hit gear for when you're tanking the first add to die. Bring a mix of FR gear for imp packs and tanking multiple Garr adds. Switch between higher armour and higher stam gear pieces based on whether you're taking majority physical or majority magical damage. Wear a mix of cat gear that's passable for tanking if you're a backup tank. Have a full cat set for when you don't need to tank, and a full healing set for Rag/when your raid is short on healers.

Cover all those bases and you can handle any situation this patch throws at you, and you'll impress your officers with your dedication, knowledge, and versatility.

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On 6/15/2017 at 8:59 AM, radhaz said:

Good to know about AC so how (in your opinion) should stats be prioritized when putting  together a tank set?

It's situational. Armor and stam are the what make bears different than warriors, so those are the first two I focus on. Once you approach the level 63 armor cap (including the armor bonuses from priests/shaman), then you should start focusing more on avoidance, since further armor won't do anything beyond the first few hits you take in a typical fight. Generally speaking, I shoot for armor > stam > agi > dodge, and start prioritizing agi & dodge more as you get into AQ level tanking gear (which already puts you at very high armor and stam levels). You have a 2.5 attack speed and the majority of your threat comes from maul, so misses are a pretty big loss to your TPS. Getting some +hit gear is pretty key, as having massive armor mitigation also results in less rage generation (especially in 5-mans).

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@Lorilay Have you done the math for what the "soft cap" for armor is when you factor in the benefit from an inspiration proc? I could do it but I'll be lazy if you have figured it out.

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I don't play a druid, but my understanding is that amount of damage reduction from armor has diminishing returns, but in terms of effective health damage reduction has increasing returns. Ends up being a pretty linear increase to 75%.

Stamina is obviously good for any tank. The more the better.

Dodge has increasing returns in terms of damage reduction and doesn't suffer from diminishing returns like armor. For example, 100% dodge is infinitely better than 99% dodge. I don't think this is really relevant for gear in vanilla, its mostly a TBC problem. 

Hit is good for threat. More is better.

Defense is still good. You cant become uncritable, but you can still become less critable, which is still important

For all of these stats, obviously more is better. Druids value armor more than other classes, for example rings and trinkets with armor are very valuable to bears. Wowwiki might be a good place to start, at least for mitigation.

http://wowwiki.wikia.com/wiki/Level_60_druid_tanking_equipment 

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If you look at the stickied post you would see that I upgraded the tank list a bit.

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I say armor has no diminishing returns because its effect on your survival has no diminishing returns. I'll use dota armor because the formula is a bit simpler, but WoW has the exact same mechanics. If 100 armor gives you 50% reduction and you have 2000hp, it will take 4000 damage to kill you. However, if you have 200 armor, you only get 66% damage reduction. But, that means it takes 6000 damage to kill you. Each 100 armor gives you the same amount of bonus to your survival, up to a hard cap in WoW.

As far as inspiration and healing wave, it's a little RNG, but your 75% armor cap vs level 63 is 21855. Priest or shaman crits give you +25% armor, so 17484 would be the cap for your buffed armor level where you would get no further benefit if a priest or shaman crit healed you. Coincidentally, that's just about the same as the 75% armor cap for a lvl 60 mob without the 25% bonus.

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On 15-6-2017 at 3:54 PM, nooobieee said:

What effects do Priests and Shamans have on armor? I don't play either of those classes.

Priests have a talent that increase your armor upon getting critically healed and shamans can sport a totem that increases it 

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There is no correct armor cap on this version of Mangos. 75% is misinformation.

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Got some kind of source for that? Your character screen will happily show a higher number but that doesn't mean that it's not working correctly. For example if I am doing deadmines in bear with crazy levels of armor then I should only be getting hit with 1 damage or something from the puny level 20 mobs. But mobs still hit me for a non negligible level of damage. Aka there is probably an armor cap and it's probably 75% as it is in official wow.

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When you fight low lvl mobs, you still get a certain amount of damage, even with high amount of armor. When I go Stockade with approxiamte 11000 armor, ill receive less then 30 dmg per mob.

According to the formula DR% = Armor / (Armor + 400 + 85 * AttackLevel) for mobs under lvl 60 i would have 81% mitigation with my armor. The base attack of the mobs is between 150 and 200 dmg. With 75% mitigation i would take between 37 and 50 dmg per hit.

I havent checked this probably. When i have some spar time ill test it out.

 

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well agility and str are good for +crit and +AP, bear is tanky but also potentially good secondary damage dealer, more crits and damage more rage so you can get your utilities too, dunno for raids but outside of raid yes it can be worth upping your damage

I guess in raids it's not bad too, if you have a good amount of +AP +crit > +damage +rage for sure, you can even heal yourself with the rage so

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The heal from rage is negligible and doesn't scale...

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ah yeah that heal I guess for raid you're getting powerful heals all the time from others

still +crit is great for extra damage right? it gives more rage than dodge no?

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