Give a pala a taunt...

[Whitewolf 1]

9 hours ago, DPS said:

taunt isn't main issue.

Main issue is that paladins dont have good enough(compared to warriors) tank gear, Last Stand, Shield Wall and def stance.

P.S. And rage>mana.

To explain what Theloras said, JoW gives you a 50% chance to proc a 59 mana gain. SoRighteousness procs it as well as the weapon strike. Which gives you a 75% chance for a single proc at the least which is not including the chance for a double proc which is on average 25% of the time.

To break it down:

25% of the time for double

50% of the time for single

25% of the time is a wash.

So on average JoW is similar to a 100% proc rate per swing. With a 1.6 speed weapon that would give you on average ~37 mana per second.

Paladins have other tricks that warriors don't have such as a 100% temporary aggro wipe and damage immunity, an instant heal to full, and a true AoE.

The only true thing going against paladins is the lack of tank gear.

[DPS 6]

3 часа назад, Theloras сказал:

mana really isn't an issue with Judgement of Wisdom and Seal/Judgement of Righteousness

-debuff spot

[DPS 6]

2 часа назад, Whitewolf сказал:

To explain what Theloras said, JoW gives you a 50% chance to proc a 59 mana gain. SoRighteousness procs it as well as the weapon strike. Which gives you a 75% chance for a single proc at the least which is not including the chance for a double proc which is on average 25% of the time.

To break it down:

25% of the time for double

50% of the time for single

25% of the time is a wash.

So on average JoW is similar to a 100% proc rate per swing. With a 1.6 speed weapon that would give you on average ~37 mana per second.

Paladins have other tricks that warriors don't have such as a 100% temporary aggro wipe and damage immunity, an instant heal to full, and a true AoE.

The only true thing going against paladins is the lack of tank gear.

Ofc you can use JoW, Mana pots, Runes, MP5 food/pots etc. But thats for sure worse than just getting rage all the time. And ofc, debuff is pretty important in raids.

Again gear+CDs+Def stance.

[Theloras 108]

3 hours ago, DPS said:

-debuff spot

Judgement of Wisdom is one of the best debuff slots to use for any Alliance guild regardless of whether a Paladin is tanking or not...

[Undertanker 88]

Gear wise they are about 9% behind warriors in terms of Effective Health Pool (EHP), for avoidance they are not as far behind in that respect.

They don't have to stack +hit gear for high threat like a warrior does so when a warrior is in TPS gear vs a Pally in their normal gear the EHP is much closer, as much as a 3-4% difference in favor of warrior.

Bosses only have a 15 resist to holy so they don't need to stack +spell hit gear and they get +3 melee hit in talent tree.

[killerduki 54]

16 hours ago, Whitewolf said:

The only true thing going against paladins is the lack of tank gear.

They don't lack of tank gear, their tank gear is there , the only true thing about their tank gear is , it is spread among all raids instead "full tier in molten core".

You will find few pieces in ZG , few pieces in MC , few pieces in BWL , few pieces in AQ , few pieces in World Bosses , 1 piece in Onyxia.

But when you combine , it gives full gear, which mean it's not lack of tank gear , but gear spread all around the raids where people unfortunately tend to skip that and the same gear they prio to warriors instead to paladins.

I have seen an examples where people tend to give Legs from ZG to Warrior > Paladin tank, this is wrong because it is BiS for Paladin and part of the issue which is called "Lack of Gear" .

/Kind regards Killerduki

[DPS 6]

13 часа назад, Theloras сказал:

Judgement of Wisdom is one of the best debuff slots to use for any Alliance guild regardless of whether a Paladin is tanking or not...

when most boss fights are ~1min fights - you dont need JoW at bosses. Raids finishing bosses before players goes oom w/o any manapots/jow/runes/oils etc

[DPS 6]

2 часа назад, killerduki сказал:

They don't lack of tank gear, their tank gear is there , the only true thing about their tank gear is , it is spread among all raids instead "full tier in molten core".

You will find few pieces in ZG , few pieces in MC , few pieces in BWL , few pieces in AQ , few pieces in World Bosses , 1 piece in Onyxia.

But when you combine , it gives full gear, which mean it's not lack of tank gear , but gear spread all around the raids where people unfortunately tend to skip that and the same gear they prio to warriors instead to paladins.

I have seen an examples where people tend to give Legs from ZG to Warrior > Paladin tank, this is wrong because it is BiS for Paladin and part of the issue which is called "Lack of Gear" .

/Kind regards Killerduki

still most of that gear is worse(less armor/sta/avoidance) than Wrath/Dreadnaught... 

[killerduki 54]

2 hours ago, DPS said:

still most of that gear is worse(less armor/sta/avoidance) than Wrath/Dreadnaught... 

Stamina yes it is worse a bit, Armor you will get capped anyway so it's no , Avoidance Paladin will get by far much more than the Warrior.

In b4 you try to neglect , Avoidance does not mean completely Block , it means Dodge/Parry and this is where Paladin shine compare to Warrior.

Avoidance for Warrior mean wipe for the Raid due lack of threats , where for Paladin it is exactly the opposite.

/Kind regards Killerduki

[flowqz 34]

the point i dont get is why you just dont run a holy/prot mix spec and just tank aoe packs if needed, instead of trying to be a second rate warrior without cds, stancedance, taunt and defstance.

[killerduki 54]

5 hours ago, flowqz said:

the point i dont get is why you just dont run a holy/prot mix spec and just tank aoe packs if needed, instead of trying to be a second rate warrior without cds, stancedance, taunt and defstance.

That's because Holy/Prot is even worse to aoe pack and MT paladin is more efficient on Boss kills for faster speed kill rather than waiting for Warrior to build up rage in order to make threats.

And it is not true without cd's , paladin have LoH for hp and Bubble to remove deadly debuffs.

Defstance = let me educate when Warrior get high armor , the defstance is not "10% damage reduction", but "2.5% damage reduction", because it goes before Armor reduction. Your theory about this goes Titanic.

At the same time Paladin have 30% more Block Value which increase Block Damage by 30% and it count after Armor reduction , this mean full amount blocking.

Another thing is Thunderfury , Paladin proc this twice more than Warrior , which is also more def compare to Warrior.

/Kind regards Killerduki

[Whitewolf 1]

7 hours ago, flowqz said:

the point i dont get is why you just dont run a holy/prot mix spec and just tank aoe packs if needed, instead of trying to be a second rate warrior without cds, stancedance, taunt and defstance.

Why play a game at all?

[DPS 6]

В 06.09.2017 в 20:15, killerduki сказал:

Stamina yes it is worse a bit, Armor you will get capped anyway so it's no , Avoidance Paladin will get by far much more than the Warrior.

In b4 you try to neglect , Avoidance does not mean completely Block , it means Dodge/Parry and this is where Paladin shine compare to Warrior.

Avoidance for Warrior mean wipe for the Raid due lack of threats , where for Paladin it is exactly the opposite.

/Kind regards Killerduki

Stamina is main stat for tanks btw... Also, armor cap req stoneshield pots on CD, its pretty expensive to drink it at each fight(how about bag spots also?)

Also, lets compare Wrath/Dreadnaugh to offsets? How about helm/chest/bracers/legs? Ranged weapon is ~100HP more! etc

Even T3 geared warriors are using Last Stand/Shield Wall/Lifegiving gem even in BWL raids... Only cause of this 3 spells pala will never get same tanking value as warrior.

[Whitewolf 1]

Please do compare the sets or point to a comparison. I'm very interested in it.

Which bosses require shield wall to survive? Same with last stand and gem. I'm unfamiliar with BWL and beyond with vanilla mechanics.

[flowqz 34]

13 hours ago, killerduki said:

That's because Holy/Prot is even worse to aoe pack and MT paladin is more efficient on Boss kills for faster speed kill rather than waiting for Warrior to build up rage in order to make threats.

 

warriors usually have no problems pooling rage before pulls. also there are ragepotions if needed.

13 hours ago, killerduki said:

 

And it is not true without cd's , paladin have LoH for hp and Bubble to remove deadly debuffs.

 

i give you that loh, although i still think its way worse than last stand.

 

13 hours ago, killerduki said:

Defstance = let me educate when Warrior get high armor , the defstance is not "10% damage reduction", but "2.5% damage reduction", because it goes before Armor reduction. Your theory about this goes Titanic.

 

that might be true, but effectifly that IS a 10% reduction. of the remaining dmg. no i didnt think they would go up to 85% overall dmg reduction (than defstance would have a 40% reduction, not 10%) .

also if i think about magicbrusts like shadowflame the 10% vs magic are also a thing.

13 hours ago, killerduki said:

At the same time Paladin have 30% more Block Value which increase Block Damage by 30% and it count after Armor reduction , this mean full amount blocking.

block has always been the paladins strong point and block is most effective on small mobs (aoe packs)

10 hours ago, Whitewolf said:

Why play a game at all?

because its fun. i just dont get why ppl try to defend a spec, which is obviously inferior. but i guess its funny when your mt paly gets blasted away at rag, cant taunt satura, 4horsemen etc.

if you have fun with it, fine. but dont try to make it sound like its a great idea. as i said i like the idea of an aoe tanking paladin, why not capitalize on an aspect where they are way ahead of other tanks?

[Silverlan 0]

16 hours ago, killerduki said:

Another thing is Thunderfury , Paladin proc this twice more than Warrior

Please don't state this as a fact, especially when this was shown to you on another thread. Yes you have the seal which procs TF, but you are purposely ignoring warrior's abilities proccing it which generates more hits per minute than weapon speed + seal.

 

I am not expressing any opion on paladin tanks being good or bad, just don't want the above mistake to be used as evidence. 

[killerduki 54]

15 hours ago, DPS said:

Stamina is main stat for tanks btw... Also, armor cap req stoneshield pots on CD, its pretty expensive to drink it at each fight(how about bag spots also?)

Also, lets compare Wrath/Dreadnaugh to offsets? How about helm/chest/bracers/legs? Ranged weapon is ~100HP more! etc

Even T3 geared warriors are using Last Stand/Shield Wall/Lifegiving gem even in BWL raids... Only cause of this 3 spells pala will never get same tanking value as warrior.

I am sorry , but i have made it clear , 30% Block Value does replace the lack of Stamina and the extra Avoidance Paladin get replace the lack of "Damage Reduction" 2.5% from Warrior.

6 hours ago, flowqz said:

warriors usually have no problems pooling rage before pulls. also there are ragepotions if needed.

i give you that loh, although i still think its way worse than last stand.

 

that might be true, but effectifly that IS a 10% reduction. of the remaining dmg. no i didnt think they would go up to 85% overall dmg reduction (than defstance would have a 40% reduction, not 10%) .

also if i think about magicbrusts like shadowflame the 10% vs magic are also a thing.

block has always been the paladins strong point and block is most effective on small mobs (aoe packs)

because its fun. i just dont get why ppl try to defend a spec, which is obviously inferior. but i guess its funny when your mt paly gets blasted away at rag, cant taunt satura, 4horsemen etc.

if you have fun with it, fine. but dont try to make it sound like its a great idea. as i said i like the idea of an aoe tanking paladin, why not capitalize on an aspect where they are way ahead of other tanks?

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warriors usually have no problems pooling rage before pulls. also there are ragepotions if needed.

They would indeed use Rage Potion , but their threats are getting wiped afterward compare to Paladin.

Quote

i give you that loh, although i still think its way worse than last stand.

LoH is not worse than Last Stand , it is indeed better , if you spec on it , will give you extra Armor which makes you cap and take lot less damage.

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that might be true, but effectifly that IS a 10% reduction. of the remaining dmg. no i didnt think they would go up to 85% overall dmg reduction (than defstance would have a 40% reduction, not 10%) .

I think you don't get the point, even if explained, you still wont.

The 10% Damage reduction is not 40% damage reduction , it is 10% before Armor , which mean after you get swing , first it count the damage reduction and then Armor reduce the damage you take, this mean you will end up with 2.5% or let say according to your logic 3.5% damage reduction.

This is easily replaced by either Paladin Avoidance or Paladin extra Block Value by far.

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also if i think about magicbrusts like shadowflame the 10% vs magic are also a thing.

Speaking about Magic damage like Shadowflame = Onyxia Cloak and Resistance cap = GG , all this logic goes Titanic.

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block has always been the paladins strong point and block is most effective on small mobs (aoe packs)

Even on big mobs single target , it is still strong point and most effective for 2 things = Threats and Damage reduction and reducing the chance to eat Crushing Blow.

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because its fun. i just dont get why ppl try to defend a spec, which is obviously inferior. but i guess its funny when your mt paly gets blasted away at rag, cant taunt satura, 4horsemen etc.

It is indeed fun, but let see your inferior logic and knowledge at this :

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but i guess its funny when your mt paly gets blasted away at rag,

Rag would much easier Blast Warriors , because they build less threats than Paladin it will wipe the whole Raid , the AoE knockback by Ragnaros with Fire Resistance Gear you can full resist 75% of the time , which mean most of the time you Tank/Spank solo it , you can have any other tank (including druids) or (another Pala Tank) replace you when you get knock (which is extremely less likely with fr cap).

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cant taunt satura,

Sartura indeed can be also Tank by Paladin even without Taunt, your logic again goes Titanic.

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Sartura and her adds will occasionally reset aggro for several seconds and start chasing random people for a duration of 5 seconds. After those 5 seconds they will return to the highest aggro target, so as long as you don't pull aggro off of the tank they will go back to him.

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4horsemen etc.

Only 1 Boss in the game , but not impossible to do with Paladin at least 1 of the Horses together with another (druid or warrior support) .

The Horses do reduce threats each time they set Mark on the Tank , having Paladin build threats all the time , go up to 8 Marks and then let other Tank Taunt but not do threats for a specific time, each time other Tank get Mark , his threats will get reduced and will fall under Paladin threats, timing this properly will mean after Paladin get his marks reset , the other tank will simple not re taunt and the Aggro continue to the Paladin again.

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if you have fun with it, fine. but dont try to make it sound like its a great idea. as i said i like the idea of an aoe tanking paladin, why not capitalize on an aspect where they are way ahead of other tanks?

Yes , we Paladins do have fun with it and we don't try to sound like its a great idea, we do say our possibilities as Tanks and we do say what you can do with Paladin where Warrior can't do.

Paladin will do more threats , Warrior can mitigate bit more but not limited to "how much people imagine" because it can end up wipe thus more Avoid=Less threats.

Paladins can still get Def cap and the "extreme big hits" can be replaced by Armor Cap using Stoneshield Potions.

Warriors does indeed beat Paladins but only in the fights where Taunt is needed, the rest is just nonsense to compare , especially where you have 90% of the Raid Bosses not even requiring Taunt to do it.

2 hours ago, Silverlan said:

Please don't state this as a fact, especially when this was shown to you on another thread. Yes you have the seal which procs TF, but you are purposely ignoring warrior's abilities proccing it which generates more hits per minute than weapon speed + seal.

 

I am not expressing any opion on paladin tanks being good or bad, just don't want the above mistake to be used as evidence. 

I am sorry but nothing was shown to me in other thread, it instead proved the theory where Paladin will do indeed more threats and still have this Proc lot more than Warrior spamming Sunders (which they got fixed) .

"The thread facts was they will spam endlessly Sunders to make Thunderfury proc close to Paladin" in order to sacrifice their whole threats for that from all other abilities, because Sunders wont make even 10% threats compare to Paladin with all his Abilities used.

In other case , Warriors will never ever have possibility to spam all their Abilities on CD (outside of sunders) in order to make more threats and at same time keeping Thunderfury up and Rage for that .

Paladins can indeed use Seal and all their abilities to keep Thunderfury all the time up and do lot threats.

All the theory about Thunderfury and Warrior > Paladin goes Titanic.

/Kind regards Killerduki

[DPS 6]

@killerduki

30% more block value? Its ~60more damage blocked... =6stamina XD Its shitty talent for boss fights.

LoH VS Shield Wall? - LoH makes you out of mana(550mana), its 60min CD, and ofc any heal paladin can use it at MT... Also, LoH can easily wasted (you using LoH and in same second you got full HP from any healer etc). Same goes for Last Stand and Lifegiving gem. Pala really lacks save CDs.

Also, many bosses got pretty hard spells (Incinerate, ShadowFlame, Arcane Exlosions, AQ40 poisons, most of Naxx bosses spells etc)

How about Zerker rage? Intercept? Gun ranged shot? 

And again about mana issues: using JoW is bad for raids cause of debuff(its good only for paladins/shadowpriests/boomkins/elems), SoW is bad too, cause you're loosing TPS while its active. Mana pots/Runes using is bad too (cause warriors dont need this shit). So yes, Mana is still issue! You need to drink mana while at trash and raid should wait for you! While good guilds are pulling non-stop when they got warrior tanks.

 

And please, answer why paladins got higher avoidance? Warrior are on higher numbers with agi/dodge/parry/miss.

Warriors are good enough at any boss encounter as tank, while there is some bosses, where there is bosses pala can't tank at all (KT, 4H, Heigan, Noth) or got serious flaws.

Paladins are really good as tanks only on few bosses that req high aggro (Thaddius!!!1111)

Answer yourself: why paladins aren't tanking nowadays? When there were lots of HARDTRY  guilds in vanilla community during last 7 years, then are using BEST OF THE BEST setups? Cause warriors are preferable to tank then paladins, cause paladins have some flaws in their tanking skills

[killerduki 54]

2 hours ago, DPS said:

@killerduki

30% more block value? Its ~60more damage blocked... =6stamina XD Its shitty talent for boss fights.

LoH VS Shield Wall? - LoH makes you out of mana(550mana), its 60min CD, and ofc any heal paladin can use it at MT... Also, LoH can easily wasted (you using LoH and in same second you got full HP from any healer etc). Same goes for Last Stand and Lifegiving gem. Pala really lacks save CDs.

Also, many bosses got pretty hard spells (Incinerate, ShadowFlame, Arcane Exlosions, AQ40 poisons, most of Naxx bosses spells etc)

How about Zerker rage? Intercept? Gun ranged shot? 

And again about mana issues: using JoW is bad for raids cause of debuff(its good only for paladins/shadowpriests/boomkins/elems), SoW is bad too, cause you're loosing TPS while its active. Mana pots/Runes using is bad too (cause warriors dont need this shit). So yes, Mana is still issue! You need to drink mana while at trash and raid should wait for you! While good guilds are pulling non-stop when they got warrior tanks.

 

And please, answer why paladins got higher avoidance? Warrior are on higher numbers with agi/dodge/parry/miss.

Warriors are good enough at any boss encounter as tank, while there is some bosses, where there is bosses pala can't tank at all (KT, 4H, Heigan, Noth) or got serious flaws.

Paladins are really good as tanks only on few bosses that req high aggro (Thaddius!!!1111)

Answer yourself: why paladins aren't tanking nowadays? When there were lots of HARDTRY  guilds in vanilla community during last 7 years, then are using BEST OF THE BEST setups? Cause warriors are preferable to tank then paladins, cause paladins have some flaws in their tanking skills

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30% more block value? Its ~60more damage blocked... =6stamina XD Its shitty talent for boss fights.

Your inferior logic can be seen from this ^

60 more damage blocked is not 6 stamina, it is 60 more damage blocked per swing , in a fight with 5 minutes duration this is like over 10 000 damage or more (depend on block chance) , if you convert 10 000 damage into stamina , this is 1000 stamina for you.

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LoH VS Shield Wall? - LoH makes you out of mana(550mana), its 60min CD, and ofc any heal paladin can use it at MT... Also, LoH can easily wasted (you using LoH and in same second you got full HP from any healer etc). Same goes for Last Stand and Lifegiving gem. Pala really lacks save CDs.

Even if your mana goes down , it will not make any changes , you would use Judgement of Wisdom which is superior debuff anyway.

LoH is also not 60 minutes if you spec it.

Comparing Shield Wall with LoH is irrelevant , you already tried to with Last Stand and Lifegiving , you have Bubble removing deadly debuffs in that case ,which can be 100% death for Warrior.

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Also, many bosses got pretty hard spells (Incinerate, ShadowFlame, Arcane Exlosions, AQ40 poisons, most of Naxx bosses spells etc)

All of those bosses are irrelevant to compare Warrior vs Paladin , it is all about resistance gear and the damage Taken is equal , think about Paladins using Auras at spots where nobody should get close to Tank , this is where Warrior will have issues , but not Paladin.

ShadowFlame = Onyxia Cloak , problem solved, this logic goes Titanic.

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How about Zerker rage? Intercept? Gun ranged shot? 

What Zerker rage ? This is not Warrior to compare frogs and peanuts , we have Exorcism , Judgements , Consecration , Seals .

Consecration can be used as kiting tool , Exorcism can be used as Ranged pulling tool for Undeads and Demons and is beyond efficient compare to Ranged Shot , Intercept ? huh , this is so irrelevant spell to use even , unless you are noob loosing aggro.

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And again about mana issues: using JoW is bad for raids cause of debuff(its good only for paladins/shadowpriests/boomkins/elems), SoW is bad too, cause you're loosing TPS while its active. Mana pots/Runes using is bad too (cause warriors dont need this shit). So yes, Mana is still issue! You need to drink mana while at trash and raid should wait for you! While good guilds are pulling non-stop when they got warrior tanks.

We seems to live in 2 different worlds , JoW is bad????? WoW , Mages,Healers,Warlocks do benefit from JoW so much , especially when they have to burn down some target and long fights like Nefarian etc.

SoW i never use , it is irrelevant,  but useful for AoE fights .

Mana pots/Runes is bad? for what? It cost me like 1 hour farming demons to collect enough.

Mana is never an issue , i don't drink mana while at trash , whoever drink mana between trash is plain noob playing without JoW and SoR , none skilled paladin should ever drink or waste time for trash.

Non-stop pulling is Paladin thing so much more than Warrior , it can run forward and spam AoE , this not just save the Raid but also focus healers on 1 target instead everyone around, saying Paladin have issues with mana and have to drink is just nonsense talking out of thin air.

Why i don't have any mana issue? I never drink water between packs at all.

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And please, answer why paladins got higher avoidance? Warrior are on higher numbers with agi/dodge/parry/miss.

Warrior will tend to use Tier Gear , Tiers does not offer enough Avoidance compare to offset items , Avoidance for warrior is also bad because it will cause him to loose aggro.

Paladin always strife to use offset Gear , this gives him plenty Avoidance which is extra good for surviving , Avoidance is no problem at all for Paladin , in fact it benefit him thanks to Parry where he get extra swing and this mean extra threats.

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Warriors are good enough at any boss encounter as tank, while there is some bosses, where there is bosses pala can't tank at all (KT, 4H, Heigan, Noth) or got serious flaws.

4h is the only one boss, the rest are 10 times better for Paladin Tank.

You have mention KT , i am sorry but he drop the threats and is immune to Taunt , Paladin have Exorcism for this job , Exorcism is 100 times more efficient than Warrior crying for "slow down the damage" in order to get Aggro.

Heigan and Noth are also better for Paladin , remember Exorcism and Mana Pots. You can dance and still do threats thanks to this. In 1 word , everything Undead is Paladin > Warrior by miles , exception is 4h as i already mention.

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Paladins are really good as tanks only on few bosses that req high aggro (Thaddius!!!1111)

Speaking with facts and speaking with evidence is not same thing , here are all your facts Titanic , where you can't comprehend and will never do.

"Denying the truth is edge of madness".

Those are not Thaddius as far i can see , these are the 2 hardest bosses (except KT) in this Game , who are not even Undeads.

All your logic goes Titanic.

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Answer yourself: why paladins aren't tanking nowadays? When there were lots of HARDTRY  guilds in vanilla community during last 7 years, then are using BEST OF THE BEST setups? Cause warriors are preferable to tank then paladins, cause paladins have some flaws in their tanking skills

Probably you live into different world as it seems ,

https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=paladin+tank+vanilla

The reason why you can't see any Paladin tank last 7 years is because you never even tried to see any, you would explicitly deny them even if you would seen any,  there was some known Paladin Tanks even in Private Servers scene like Cystheen etc.

Yes , they was not efficient until today, because Private servers like Feenix,Nostalrius,Kronos and even old Elysium and Valkyrie had extremely big issues with Game Breaking bugged Abilities , none of them did bother fixing them until today , even today Paladins do have some bugs which influence their game and hold them down (such bugged bosses not fixed in ZG by Elysium etc) .

When something is broken , how can you expect people to play or to be efficient? Ofc not , nobody want to play on Bugged Character and those who will try, will quit.

If you had Taunt non working to a Warrior , is he going to be any efficient ? Ofc not , nobody will even play it.

/Kind regards Killerduki

[Roxanne Flowers 15]

30 minutes ago, killerduki said:

Your inferior logic can be seen from this ^

60 more damage blocked is not 6 stamina, it is 60 more damage blocked per swing

I think he was trying to assert that Warriors are such good tanks that raid bosses will only swing at them once per raid.  You know, basically Warrior tanks are Chuck Norris compared to Paladin tanks being ... uh ... Paksenarrion.

Either that or he was trying to say that every time a Paladin Blocks a Warrior gains 6 Stamina to compensate?

Ummm ...

/kek?

[DPS 6]

@killerduki

6stam/block: ofc, overall dmg taken is lower with this extra 30%blockvalue, but still you're got heals each swing! To survive boss fight you need to survive at least 1 hit from boss ALL THE TIME(Including crit if you aren't crit immune), if boss have "combo"(eg broodlord mortal+firenova+white hit) you need enough "trueHP" to survive it. So, if you're getting heals all the time, 30% block value is like 6 more sta(12x if boss attack speed is fast and you most times got heals like ~each 2 hits), also this 30% block is useless vs spells. 

In general, Block value is pretty useless(compared to stamina) on boss fights, but SUPERIOR on huge packs of low-hitting mobs ofc.

 

LoH: LoH is just HEAL with extra armor. ANY PALADIN CAN USE IT ON YOU! EACH WARRIOR TANK GOT THIS SPELL!

Bubble: there is no any critical debuffs that can be removed with it! Ofc, you can use it to dispell things like Mortal Wound, but you can remove it as warrior too with BoP! You can't remove 4H mark, Maexxna stun etc. Only shitty debufffs are removable with it, thats not makes any imbalansive advantage to pala tank.

JoW is bad on MOST BOSSES! Cause you never got out of mana(except you're ret/prot pala/Boomkin/SP/elem). Again: PPL ARE NOT GOING OOM ON 1min fights!

Ofc, you also can use runes, mana pots etc but STILL THAT REQ extra farming!!! While other classes dont need it!

Btw do you know that Feral druid can rape asses in PvE with Manual Crowd Pummeler? BUT!!! Its only 3 charges, so you need to farm like ~3maces for EACH raid(to top meters), and to enchant all 3!!! 

 

Gear:

Warriors are using tier gear cause mostly thats best gear for tanking! T3 in overall is much better than any offset(belt is a bit worse on avoidance, but better in general). T3 warriors are not using any other items cause, there is no any Naxx tank offsetitems(armor), and AQ40 items for sure worse than Naxx =)

Also, Avoidance is still good for warriors, cause even full T3 bis tank gets enough rage for standart rotation withour HS, and thats more than enough to not loosing aggro.

 

Bosses:

KT: Pala tank will be raped if at least one group fails with interrupt frostbolt cause of pala low HP and lack DefStance. It will oneshot pala, also general low HP makes pala more likely to die here, when you can get powerful spell combo from boss+autoattack.

Heigan: AoE mana burn. You will get chance to be oneshotted(if debuff+manaburn+whitehit combo), or you will be on 0 mana whole fight.

Noth: Any blink+resist will ruin your raiding here ;-)

Thaddius: Warriors got pretty huge issues here cause of damage buffs, mean players gets x2 aggro, while warrior's aggro is less than x2(cause of warrior's shieldslam/revenge are pretty weak, and most aggro is static and can't be raised with damage buffs). 

While paladin's threat scales good on Thad, and general high undead tps building is high for palas in general, makes damage dealers free to DPS w/o looking for their threat in KTM.

 

 

BTW, you can't do blizzlike Maexxna with pala, cause webwrap isn't removable with buble. Also I noticed that you're almost OOM while boss is like ~70% on that ss.

 

 

I tried it back to 2010-2014 (I had pala alt) up to AQ40 few items. (It was mainspeced as ret, but it was my fan character, so I got also prot items).

Also, my friend(he was also paladin CL in my guild) had best pala tanking gear on Feenix (including CThun neck, you know how rare item that was on feenix).

Back to 2010, when we was progressing in BWL at Feenix we used prot pala to tank Razorgore(cause it was easiest way to kill that custom Razorgore). 

I'm always up for theorycrafting, and to be fair, we done all this calcs years ago, and we got that ANY CLASS can tank, but best tanks in general is warriors.

Many classes (druids, paladins, warlocks, rogues) can huge advantages in tanking, but they got flaws. Warrior don't have any serious flaws in tanking, and tanking warrior gameplay is much much easier and req much less effort than tanking as pala or as druid.

Thats why Pala tanks are tanking mostly 5-10men/ZG/MC/Ony. Its fun tanking class. Its for fanatics but not fore average players.

 

I always loved that rogue quest name: 

Цитата

Possible but not probable

 

[DPS 6]

btw. I tanked Noth as fury warrior, in fury gear. And TPS was like 2-3 times higher than prot warriors goes with.

I weekly tanked Gluth as fury warrior, in fury gear(we had 2x fury wars tanking here) and each kill was brilliant!

One week Loatheb become bugged after server update(Spore didn't reduced your threat), so I tanked it in fury spec and in fury gear.

Few times I tanked Ragna as fury warrior, in fury gear(tank dies few secs after pull).

In general I tanked each boss(except Viscidus and KT) in fury gear/spec after tank dies, and that result to boss kill.

For Sapph I tanked it ~from 30% to 0%.

Threat regeneration is much better than for pala, if you mix your fury gear with some T2.5 and T3 you'll get ~11k HP buffed with good enough DPS/TPS potential. You have taunt, Death wish/Zerk rage, intercept, stance mastery, crazy threat building, shield wall, lifegiving gem(if equip ofc).

Cmon! Fury warrior is much better tank that prot pala! 

[Whitewolf 1]

The is no reason to enchant the MCP as a druid. Just put on some counterweights.

Last stand and life giving gem only last 20 sec. each and the gem can be replaced by another trinket.

When you tanked as a fury warrior, was it fun knowing that your warrior tank died regardless of them being a superior tank?

[killerduki 54]

5 hours ago, DPS said:

@killerduki

6stam/block: ofc, overall dmg taken is lower with this extra 30%blockvalue, but still you're got heals each swing! To survive boss fight you need to survive at least 1 hit from boss ALL THE TIME(Including crit if you aren't crit immune), if boss have "combo"(eg broodlord mortal+firenova+white hit) you need enough "trueHP" to survive it. So, if you're getting heals all the time, 30% block value is like 6 more sta(12x if boss attack speed is fast and you most times got heals like ~each 2 hits), also this 30% block is useless vs spells. 

In general, Block value is pretty useless(compared to stamina) on boss fights, but SUPERIOR on huge packs of low-hitting mobs ofc.

 

LoH: LoH is just HEAL with extra armor. ANY PALADIN CAN USE IT ON YOU! EACH WARRIOR TANK GOT THIS SPELL!

Bubble: there is no any critical debuffs that can be removed with it! Ofc, you can use it to dispell things like Mortal Wound, but you can remove it as warrior too with BoP! You can't remove 4H mark, Maexxna stun etc. Only shitty debufffs are removable with it, thats not makes any imbalansive advantage to pala tank.

JoW is bad on MOST BOSSES! Cause you never got out of mana(except you're ret/prot pala/Boomkin/SP/elem). Again: PPL ARE NOT GOING OOM ON 1min fights!

Ofc, you also can use runes, mana pots etc but STILL THAT REQ extra farming!!! While other classes dont need it!

Btw do you know that Feral druid can rape asses in PvE with Manual Crowd Pummeler? BUT!!! Its only 3 charges, so you need to farm like ~3maces for EACH raid(to top meters), and to enchant all 3!!! 

 

Gear:

Warriors are using tier gear cause mostly thats best gear for tanking! T3 in overall is much better than any offset(belt is a bit worse on avoidance, but better in general). T3 warriors are not using any other items cause, there is no any Naxx tank offsetitems(armor), and AQ40 items for sure worse than Naxx =)

Also, Avoidance is still good for warriors, cause even full T3 bis tank gets enough rage for standart rotation withour HS, and thats more than enough to not loosing aggro.

 

Bosses:

KT: Pala tank will be raped if at least one group fails with interrupt frostbolt cause of pala low HP and lack DefStance. It will oneshot pala, also general low HP makes pala more likely to die here, when you can get powerful spell combo from boss+autoattack.

Heigan: AoE mana burn. You will get chance to be oneshotted(if debuff+manaburn+whitehit combo), or you will be on 0 mana whole fight.

Noth: Any blink+resist will ruin your raiding here ;-)

Thaddius: Warriors got pretty huge issues here cause of damage buffs, mean players gets x2 aggro, while warrior's aggro is less than x2(cause of warrior's shieldslam/revenge are pretty weak, and most aggro is static and can't be raised with damage buffs). 

While paladin's threat scales good on Thad, and general high undead tps building is high for palas in general, makes damage dealers free to DPS w/o looking for their threat in KTM.

 

 

BTW, you can't do blizzlike Maexxna with pala, cause webwrap isn't removable with buble. Also I noticed that you're almost OOM while boss is like ~70% on that ss.

 

 

I tried it back to 2010-2014 (I had pala alt) up to AQ40 few items. (It was mainspeced as ret, but it was my fan character, so I got also prot items).

Also, my friend(he was also paladin CL in my guild) had best pala tanking gear on Feenix (including CThun neck, you know how rare item that was on feenix).

Back to 2010, when we was progressing in BWL at Feenix we used prot pala to tank Razorgore(cause it was easiest way to kill that custom Razorgore). 

I'm always up for theorycrafting, and to be fair, we done all this calcs years ago, and we got that ANY CLASS can tank, but best tanks in general is warriors.

Many classes (druids, paladins, warlocks, rogues) can huge advantages in tanking, but they got flaws. Warrior don't have any serious flaws in tanking, and tanking warrior gameplay is much much easier and req much less effort than tanking as pala or as druid.

Thats why Pala tanks are tanking mostly 5-10men/ZG/MC/Ony. Its fun tanking class. Its for fanatics but not fore average players.

 

I always loved that rogue quest name: 

 

 

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6stam/block: ofc, overall dmg taken is lower with this extra 30%blockvalue, but still you're got heals each swing! To survive boss fight you need to survive at least 1 hit from boss ALL THE TIME(Including crit if you aren't crit immune), if boss have "combo"(eg broodlord mortal+firenova+white hit) you need enough "trueHP" to survive it. So, if you're getting heals all the time, 30% block value is like 6 more sta(12x if boss attack speed is fast and you most times got heals like ~each 2 hits), also this 30% block is useless vs spells. 

Speaking out of thin air again , nobody would be stupid to go in deep raids like t2 and t3 with low gear, which mean if Paladin go there will ofc have enough Stamina, but once you have descent Stamina , anything more than that is worthless compare to Avoidance, Avoidance is 0 Damage and yes Crit immune is mandatory or you are noob if you don't .

Broodlord - Stoneshield potion + Bubble from Priest = problem solved , nothing will kill you with that.

Your "TrueHP" is Titanic , because nobody is stupid to use Blue items to tank these bosses.

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LoH: LoH is just HEAL with extra armor. ANY PALADIN CAN USE IT ON YOU! EACH WARRIOR TANK GOT THIS SPELL!

Still Paladin Tank will have another one as Extra  , where Warrior Tank will not . You logic is again Titanic.

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Bubble: there is no any critical debuffs that can be removed with it! Ofc, you can use it to dispell things like Mortal Wound, but you can remove it as warrior too with BoP! You can't remove 4H mark, Maexxna stun etc. Only shitty debufffs are removable with it, thats not makes any imbalansive advantage to pala tank.

You can't remove nothing with BoP , unless something is bugged in this private servers, not at all.

Divine is immune on everything , BoP is just immune on physical damage , nothing else.

There are plenty critical debuffs that can be removed, example for this are : Golemagg debuffs , Huhuran debuff , Conflag from bwl 1st boss etc etc.

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JoW is bad on MOST BOSSES! Cause you never got out of mana(except you're ret/prot pala/Boomkin/SP/elem). Again: PPL ARE NOT GOING OOM ON 1min fights!

Neither Paladin will go OOM on 1 min fight even without JoW,  your logic is indeed again Titanic.

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Ofc, you also can use runes, mana pots etc but STILL THAT REQ extra farming!!! While other classes dont need it!

Good , it cost me 30 minutes in my life to spend for that, nice farming , i get Felcloths by doing that either which i also profit from that.

Quote

Btw do you know that Feral druid can rape asses in PvE with Manual Crowd Pummeler? BUT!!! Its only 3 charges, so you need to farm like ~3maces for EACH raid(to top meters), and to enchant all 3!!! 

What this have anything with Paladin tank ? What you are even trying to achieve with comparing frogs and noggers?
 

Quote

 

Gear:

Warriors are using tier gear cause mostly thats best gear for tanking! T3 in overall is much better than any offset(belt is a bit worse on avoidance, but better in general). T3 warriors are not using any other items cause, there is no any Naxx tank offsetitems(armor), and AQ40 items for sure worse than Naxx =)

 

Best gear for Tanking is only for Warriors ,not for Paladins , doesn't mean it's the best gear forever for everyone , neither best Cloth items are best for Mages , can be also best for Warlocks.

You are talking out of thin air , There are Naxx offset items and they are plenty.

T3 Warrior Gear is mainly Block Value and Stamina , where it lack lot on Avoidance such as Parry and Dodge .

Parry and Dodge can be crucial to wipe the whole raid for Warrior , because he will lack of threats . For Paladin this is superior and best.

Talking what is best Gear for Tanking is not overall class related , it is specific class, none of the Classes have things in common to compare , all your theory is based of Garbage.

Bosses:

Quote

KT: Pala tank will be raped if at least one group fails with interrupt frostbolt cause of pala low HP and lack DefStance. It will oneshot pala, also general low HP makes pala more likely to die here, when you can get powerful spell combo from boss+autoattack.

Same rule apply for Warrior , it will one shot them either way.

Paladin is not that weak with HP as you have with your delusional way of thinking , Paladin can still manage to go up to 15k HP while Frostbolt hit 10-11k dmg , still 4k HP left to survive it as Paladin.

Again you try to push your logic out of nonsense .

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Heigan: AoE mana burn. You will get chance to be oneshotted(if debuff+manaburn+whitehit combo), or you will be on 0 mana whole fight.

As i said , Paladin don't need lot mana , it is enough to use once Potion and burn all mana for extremely high threats , only noobs will stay there with mana by not wasting it while tanking. All you need is to use Seal , spam everything to Exorcism,Shield,Consecration and enjoy with Autoattack swings with Seal .

During Dancing Phase you use Rune and Exorcism it all the time (building threats even more while Warrior can just cry for it).

Your oneshot theory is again Titanic.

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Noth: Any blink+resist will ruin your raiding here ;-)

Any Resist on Taunt will wipe the Raid , Paladin have 2 options , 1 is Exorcism and 2 is Judgement , while Holy Resistance is extremely unlikely to be resisted , the Warrior is the one who will cry for aggro , not Paladin.

Your theory is again based of  Garbage.

Quote

BTW, you can't do blizzlike Maexxna with pala, cause webwrap isn't removable with buble. Also I noticed that you're almost OOM while boss is like ~70% on that ss.

http://wowwiki.wikia.com/wiki/Maexxna?oldid=346543

Revision as of 02:53, November 29, 2006

It has been witnessed that with surgical timing Rogues (using Vanish) and Mages (with Iceblock) can avoid the Web Spray and continue to DPS her down during the final Web Spray when they would normally be immobilised. Also, since a Web Wrap takes a half second to be removed after it's been DPS'd down, a player can avoid Web Spray if timed correctly.

Your logic is again Titanic , everyone can see this , you talk nothing but nonsense .

OOM does not mean i am loosing threats at all , if you see me OOM , it can be for another reason , like helping out to increase damage done , completely irrelevant to what you think , because the fight is Tank/Spank in the SS you see mainly (with minor exclusions).

For example Twins does not even require Mana , once they Teleport the closest target have extremely high threats, Mana is irrelevant there at all , for Maexxna is just Tank/Spank for MT and that's it, burn your mana free without any care, you will regen extremely fast with JoW / SoR .

Again your logic is Titanic.

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I tried it back to 2010-2014 (I had pala alt) up to AQ40 few items. (It was mainspeced as ret, but it was my fan character, so I got also prot items).

Vanilla is not 2010 , Wrath of the Lich king is 2010.

 I am one of the rare Prot Paladins who have done all this things during 2005 and 2006 , where people was still new and had no clue how to play this game,  not like today "Experts like you" trying to preach nonsense .

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Also, my friend(he was also paladin CL in my guild) had best pala tanking gear on Feenix (including CThun neck, you know how rare item that was on feenix).

Having Gear obtained as Holy or Retri has nothing with having Skills as Paladin Tank.

Him being CL position shows nothing but a junk of noob who has no idea how to play his class .

I been GM so what? Does this make any better for you ?

I also played in Feenix , completely broken server with extremely broken Paladin Abilities, you couldn't even regen mana with SoR there , you couldn't even proc Items with SoR , neither SoR did scale properly at all , it was disaster , extremely broken and bad project with non working Abilities.

5 years reported but never fixed bugs.

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I'm always up for theorycrafting, and to be fair, we done all this calcs years ago, and we got that ANY CLASS can tank, but best tanks in general is warriors.

None of the calculations are proper , Feenix was disaster project to begin with your calculations , nothing was working properly there at all , even Elysium today has so much significant bugs , this does not make Warrior better , it make just more broken Paladins , bug is bug and nothing you try to propagate is relevant , you have no facts to even claim something , you have no evidence to even show us your Paladin , your playstyle , your gear, skills , server you record at etc , bugs etc , you just talk out of thin air nonsense .

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Many classes (druids, paladins, warlocks, rogues) can huge advantages in tanking, but they got flaws. Warrior don't have any serious flaws in tanking, and tanking warrior gameplay is much much easier and req much less effort than tanking as pala or as druid.

Tanks are and always was and will be Druids/Warriors/Paladins and this is final , you can try compare frogs with rabbits , but all you say is just garbage.

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Thats why Pala tanks are tanking mostly 5-10men/ZG/MC/Ony. Its fun tanking class. Its for fanatics but not fore average players.

Paladins are for those who enjoy to play , it's not limited to 5-10 man or the raids you mention , it is designed and created for everything.

Fanatics are those who try to preach like you , who should eat , who should play and what should play, nothing else but fanatics trying to push over propaganda to others (like Alexensual) .

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btw. I tanked Noth as fury warrior, in fury gear. And TPS was like 2-3 times higher than prot warriors goes with.

Retribution Paladin will do 10 times more than your Fury Warrior , your theory again goes Titanic.

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I weekly tanked Gluth as fury warrior, in fury gear(we had 2x fury wars tanking here) and each kill was brilliant!

Put Tanking gear on Retribution Paladin and you will get 10 times better results again , Vengeance will simple do crazy threats , especially where you have Exorcism available to use.

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One week Loatheb become bugged after server update(Spore didn't reduced your threat), so I tanked it in fury spec and in fury gear.

Same Retribution Paladin can do either and even better than Fury , since Holy is 90% more threats.

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In general I tanked each boss(except Viscidus and KT) in fury gear/spec after tank dies, and that result to boss kill.

Sure , show me Twins and Maexxna tanking in Fury Gear/Spec and i will believe you , otherwise you talk Garbage or the project you play is extremely bugged.

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For Sapph I tanked it ~from 30% to 0%.

Frost resistance gear with def gear = Retribution can do it using Shield even better , he can do Exorcism when boss fly and still do threats.

Quote

Threat regeneration is much better than for pala, if you mix your fury gear with some T2.5 and T3 you'll get ~11k HP buffed with good enough DPS/TPS potential. You have taunt, Death wish/Zerk rage, intercept, stance mastery, crazy threat building, shield wall, lifegiving gem(if equip ofc).

It's not and will never be , any Holy damage Paladin does is 90% more threats , Warrior is extremely limited to it's Abilities and his white swings can do 10% more threats only.

Your theory is just Garbage and Titanic.

8 hours ago, Roxanne Flowers said:

I think he was trying to assert that Warriors are such good tanks that raid bosses will only swing at them once per raid.  You know, basically Warrior tanks are Chuck Norris compared to Paladin tanks being ... uh ... Paksenarrion.

Either that or he was trying to say that every time a Paladin Blocks a Warrior gains 6 Stamina to compensate?

Ummm ...

/kek?

Top Kek , you made my day <3

/Kind regards Killerduki

[DPS 6]

@killerduki

LoH: yeah, you have "another one LoH" as pala, but you can also just get 1 more holy pala for it. But you dont have shield wall.(HELLO! SHIELD WALL! The best ability in game when things goes about surviving!)

BoP: You can't "remove" debuffs with it, but you can wait while its goes off! In good timing you can tank fanrkiss in 1 tank ;-)

Huhu is abble to be killed w/o removing debuffs in 1 tank. 

90% threat: ONLY FOR HOLY! Not for white hits! While warrior got threat mod for ALL attacks and general DPS(TPS) is much much higher( BT is ~350TPS, Revenge is ~200TPS, HS spam in Naxx gear is ~300tps), fury warrior is easy to stay on ~1k TPS, using DW and reck white top-end gear with world buffs can allow you to burst your TPS to ~3k for short period of time. Any other class can get so high numbers except fire mage with Ignite 

bosses: dont have SS, but you can see tanking Twins fury at our server first kill, when MT gets red shield, and died cause of it (LOL!) And I get tanking it with shield wall, shield wall elapsed, but lucky there wasn't any unballancing strike. Maexxna same way: during enrage phase tank dies, and I (as #2 aggro) gets it > shield equip+LoH>boss kill.

In general, when you're talking about ret pala - I'm agree with you that it can tank pretty good too, but still thats much lower TPS than fury warr,

 

 

All that talks about KT, Broodlord and gear in general: Please list BiS ingame tanking gear for prot pala and calculate its stats and compare to warrior BiS items ;-)

I'm simply dont have time for it =)