Give a pala a taunt...

[killerduki 54]

3 hours ago, DPS said:

@killerduki

LoH: yeah, you have "another one LoH" as pala, but you can also just get 1 more holy pala for it. But you dont have shield wall.(HELLO! SHIELD WALL! The best ability in game when things goes about surviving!)

BoP: You can't "remove" debuffs with it, but you can wait while its goes off! In good timing you can tank fanrkiss in 1 tank ;-)

Huhu is abble to be killed w/o removing debuffs in 1 tank. 

90% threat: ONLY FOR HOLY! Not for white hits! While warrior got threat mod for ALL attacks and general DPS(TPS) is much much higher( BT is ~350TPS, Revenge is ~200TPS, HS spam in Naxx gear is ~300tps), fury warrior is easy to stay on ~1k TPS, using DW and reck white top-end gear with world buffs can allow you to burst your TPS to ~3k for short period of time. Any other class can get so high numbers except fire mage with Ignite 

bosses: dont have SS, but you can see tanking Twins fury at our server first kill, when MT gets red shield, and died cause of it (LOL!) And I get tanking it with shield wall, shield wall elapsed, but lucky there wasn't any unballancing strike. Maexxna same way: during enrage phase tank dies, and I (as #2 aggro) gets it > shield equip+LoH>boss kill.

In general, when you're talking about ret pala - I'm agree with you that it can tank pretty good too, but still thats much lower TPS than fury warr,

 

 

All that talks about KT, Broodlord and gear in general: Please list BiS ingame tanking gear for prot pala and calculate its stats and compare to warrior BiS items ;-)

I'm simply dont have time for it =)

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LoH: yeah, you have "another one LoH" as pala, but you can also just get 1 more holy pala for it. But you dont have shield wall.(HELLO! SHIELD WALL! The best ability in game when things goes about surviving!)

The same thing you can say for Bubble, the best ability to remove all debuffs who can kill you as a tank either and Warriors don't have that.

Your theory about best surviving ability goes again Titanic.

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BoP: You can't "remove" debuffs with it, but you can wait while its goes off! In good timing you can tank fanrkiss in 1 tank ;-)

Still it's not efficient like DP Paladin Bubble as a Tank where you can remove the debuff and time it still.

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Huhu is abble to be killed w/o removing debuffs in 1 tank. 

Same you can say for Paladin about every single boss, it can be done without Warrior too.

With Paladin Huhuran is so much easy and it makes everybody life easier when you remove the debuff.

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90% threat: ONLY FOR HOLY! Not for white hits! While warrior got threat mod for ALL attacks and general DPS(TPS) is much much higher( BT is ~350TPS, Revenge is ~200TPS, HS spam in Naxx gear is ~300tps), fury warrior is easy to stay on ~1k TPS, using DW and reck white top-end gear with world buffs can allow you to burst your TPS to ~3k for short period of time. Any other class can get so high numbers except fire mage with Ignite 

Your modifier is 10% for all damage , but Paladin does 90% on Holy and 10% on white hits (Thanks to one-handed weapon spec) .

Paladin Tank threats and damage output is mainly Holy but not limited and still does lot damage/threats with white swings, so your Warrior "All attacks" goes again Titanic.

You say BT is 350 TPS , i am sorry but all the abilities you mention are either on CD or Rage requirement , you can't spam them on CD each second because your rage will go down and then you also go down with that.

Paladin Tank can do 1k TPS only by SoR for infinite time (without even bothering with other abilities at all) "Speaking with Naxx Gear" is even more than that.

Even your fury warrior will not even get close to the threats Paladin could do. Mages can still do Ignite and Paladin will handle it , Warrior will never handle this .

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In general, when you're talking about ret pala - I'm agree with you that it can tank pretty good too, but still thats much lower TPS than fury warr,

You again speaking with theory based of a Garbage , Paladin in every angle will beat Warrior in threats , even if you are Fury , Warrior will still do 2 times lower threats than the Paladin , but when you compare frogs with cabbage , then Retribution Paladin will kick the shit out of Fury Warrior on threats.

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All that talks about KT, Broodlord and gear in general: Please list BiS ingame tanking gear for prot pala and calculate its stats and compare to warrior BiS items ;-)

Irrelevant to compare , none of both classes are using the same stats or even need the same stats , similar yes , but it's not the same to compare them at all.

Warrior need more Block Value to keep the constant damage taken lower , Paladin need more Avoidance to keep the damage taken lower.

Warrior with Avoidance is wipe for the raid , he will loose threats , Paladin with Avoidance is unaffected to it's threats and it's good for him , he can still do threats and Avoid .

I don't have to bother listing you BiS in game tanking gear , you have Atlas Loot , DB and Google for that , unless you are irresponsible to do it , not my fault.

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I'm simply dont have time for it =)

You already wasted lot time trying to preach something you have no clue about , you could instead use that time for something more useful and do your own investigation instead trash talking about Paladins.

/Kind regards Killerduki

[DPS 6]

@killerduki

Oke, list at least your BiS tank gear whole game with stats and calculations ;-) And I will show you warrior calcs. And you will see that warrior-pally on stats is ~same as T3 warrior vs T2 warrior.

Btw warrior in def stance is 130% threat mod(~150% with defiance talent).

Also, back to your buble: warrior dont need it. Warrior can simply live with all this debuffs whith CDs used, and nobody will die(cause of lag/timing issues buble can kill #2 in threat list)

Still, avoidance is good for warrior too, you're always got enough rage to use your abyls each CD in time (unless youre tanking ZG in Naxx gear)

Fury warrior gain more TPS than prot warrior or paladin. Tested both in spreadsheets and practic. 

Btw, Avoidance is worse for pala threat regen than for warriors: miss/dodge/parry won't proc holy shield/BoSanc.

Warrior block value? Bullshit! Block value is pretty shit stat for warrior. Stamina ftw!

1k DPS only with SoR? Are you joking? Lets say we got overgeared prot pala with lets say Widow Remorce: 1.6 speed, ~200 white hits(sunder armor up), ~100 SoR hits= each 1.6 sec we got 200white TPS and 190 SoR= 390/1.6 = ~just 250TPS. Oke, lets add 50% crit chance = ~350TPS

Oke, lets Add 100% consecration uptime = ~80*1.9= ~150TPS, but it drains 70mana per sec(mean it will drain more than 4k mana per fast fight)

So we got 500 TPS for OVERGEARED paladin with 100% uptime Conseration.

Wanna add Holy SHield? - oke! 4stacks, (~180dmg each+40threat)*1.9 = ~1600 Threat with 10sec CD = just 160TPS

Exorcism? ~1000 avg hit each 15sec = 1900/15= ~120 TPS.

In general we have ~800 TPS for OVERGEARED paladins who is fighting VS undeads, while using Consecration, Exorcism each CD.

Btw this rotation will eat ~120mana per second. How much mana do you have? I bet, not more than 4200-4600. Ofc, you can use JoW+SoW, but then your TPS will be much lower cause you lost SoR and JoC.

 

I'm still wanna hear how much tanking stats you can get as prot pala to compare it with warrior.

[killerduki 54]

1 hour ago, DPS said:

@killerduki

Oke, list at least your BiS tank gear whole game with stats and calculations ;-) And I will show you warrior calcs. And you will see that warrior-pally on stats is ~same as T3 warrior vs T2 warrior.

Btw warrior in def stance is 130% threat mod(~150% with defiance talent).

Also, back to your buble: warrior dont need it. Warrior can simply live with all this debuffs whith CDs used, and nobody will die(cause of lag/timing issues buble can kill #2 in threat list)

Still, avoidance is good for warrior too, you're always got enough rage to use your abyls each CD in time (unless youre tanking ZG in Naxx gear)

Fury warrior gain more TPS than prot warrior or paladin. Tested both in spreadsheets and practic. 

Btw, Avoidance is worse for pala threat regen than for warriors: miss/dodge/parry won't proc holy shield/BoSanc.

Warrior block value? Bullshit! Block value is pretty shit stat for warrior. Stamina ftw!

1k DPS only with SoR? Are you joking? Lets say we got overgeared prot pala with lets say Widow Remorce: 1.6 speed, ~200 white hits(sunder armor up), ~100 SoR hits= each 1.6 sec we got 200white TPS and 190 SoR= 390/1.6 = ~just 250TPS. Oke, lets add 50% crit chance = ~350TPS

Oke, lets Add 100% consecration uptime = ~80*1.9= ~150TPS, but it drains 70mana per sec(mean it will drain more than 4k mana per fast fight)

So we got 500 TPS for OVERGEARED paladin with 100% uptime Conseration.

Wanna add Holy SHield? - oke! 4stacks, (~180dmg each+40threat)*1.9 = ~1600 Threat with 10sec CD = just 160TPS

Exorcism? ~1000 avg hit each 15sec = 1900/15= ~120 TPS.

In general we have ~800 TPS for OVERGEARED paladins who is fighting VS undeads, while using Consecration, Exorcism each CD.

Btw this rotation will eat ~120mana per second. How much mana do you have? I bet, not more than 4200-4600. Ofc, you can use JoW+SoW, but then your TPS will be much lower cause you lost SoR and JoC.

 

I'm still wanna hear how much tanking stats you can get as prot pala to compare it with warrior.

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Oke, list at least your BiS tank gear whole game with stats and calculations ;-) And I will show you warrior calcs. And you will see that warrior-pally on stats is ~same as T3 warrior vs T2 warrior.

Completely irrelevant to compare , as i said they don't even need the same stats. You are asking for frogs to compare with cabbages, even if "Warrior Stats" in your eye are better , it is wrong , again T3 offers more Stamina , offset offers more Avoidance. Warrior need Stamina and Block Value , Paladin need Avoidance.

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Btw warrior in def stance is 130% threat mod(~150% with defiance talent).

All your logic goes down with this Titanic , Warrior get only 10% threats increase using def stance.

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Also, back to your buble: warrior dont need it. Warrior can simply live with all this debuffs whith CDs used, and nobody will die(cause of lag/timing issues buble can kill #2 in threat list)

Neither Paladin need Shield Wall according to your logic, it can again live without it again.

Bubble have macro for that , removes it within 1 second or less , warrior can indeed also make mistakes too , none of your logic about this is accurate at all again.

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Still, avoidance is good for warrior too, you're always got enough rage to use your abyls each CD in time (unless youre tanking ZG in Naxx gear)

Perhaps you play in some broken project or noob guild , with people full dpsing , Warrior goes nearly always without Rage and cry for it , unless you play Kronos/Feenix/Old Nost/Crestfall where they have endless and infinite rage according to Modified formula instead to proper Blizzlike formula.

Give me any Video where you have full Avoidance Gear Warrior with maximum rage spamming his Abilities on CD's , the Video must be from Elysium and must be from current timeline period (when things got fixed).

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Btw, Avoidance is worse for pala threat regen than for warriors: miss/dodge/parry won't proc holy shield/BoSanc.

This is where your knowledge is inferior about Paladins , Paladins threats mainly are from Seal of Righteousness and because Paladins can't get Avoidance cap , they will still block same as always do , which mean Bosanc/Holy Shield will still work in exact manner , the only difference is they wont get big hits thanks to Avoidance , nothing else, Warrior without eating big hits = cry's for Rage.

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Warrior block value? Bullshit! Block value is pretty shit stat for warrior. Stamina ftw!

Check your T3 Stats , you say that you are pro Warrior , you should have known that already , T3 beside Stamina has huge amount of Block Value . If you sy shit stat for Warrior , then it means T3 is shit for Warrior. (Your Logic is again Titanic).

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1k DPS only with SoR? Are you joking? Lets say we got overgeared prot pala with lets say Widow Remorce: 1.6 speed, ~200 white hits(sunder armor up), ~100 SoR hits= each 1.6 sec we got 200white TPS and 190 SoR= 390/1.6 = ~just 250TPS. Oke, lets add 50% crit chance = ~350TPS

You again talk nonsense , i never said 1k "DPS" , i have said 1k "TPS" , in before you even talk craps like that , i suggest you to first read "TPS" before you trashtalk.

What 100 SoR hits??? I am currently doing more than 100 SoR damage with MC Gear, you said Naxx Gear , Paladin with Naxx Gear will do over 500 SoR damage . Now add One-Handed Weap damage 10% for sor and the white swings increased by 10% from it.

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Oke, lets Add 100% consecration uptime = ~80*1.9= ~150TPS, but it drains 70mana per sec(mean it will drain more than 4k mana per fast fight)

Only noobs tank with 100% consecration uptime , your logic fails from here,  nobody in the world will dare to tank with this on a Singe-Target Boss , else he is clearly disaster player draining his mana worthless.

I can see how noob player you are when you talk your logic. You never ever played Paladin Tank to begin with and if you ever tried then you was terrible clueless player.

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Wanna add Holy SHield? - oke! 4stacks, (~180dmg each+40threat)*1.9 = ~1600 Threat with 10sec CD = just 160TPS

Holy Shield with spell damage is not 180 damage , neither you get extra 40 threats from block, it is lot more than that.

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Exorcism? ~1000 avg hit each 15sec = 1900/15= ~120 TPS.

You add numbers out of thin air , Exorcism with strong Spell Damage can go up to 2k damage.

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In general we have ~800 TPS for OVERGEARED paladins who is fighting VS undeads, while using Consecration, Exorcism each CD.

You are adding numbers out of thin air , overgeared Paladins will do 500 SoR damage, with only it's Seal will make 900 TPS , not to mention the white swings and other abilities used. Since you trash talk about Overgeared , think about Legendary Weapon who have 50% proc rate for Paladin compare to 25% proc rate for Warrior thanks to Seal of Righteousness.

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Btw this rotation will eat ~120mana per second. How much mana do you have? I bet, not more than 4200-4600. Ofc, you can use JoW+SoW, but then your TPS will be much lower cause you lost SoR and JoC.

Your rotation is out of touch , neither efficient , neither properly , you made things out of nowhere with nonsense .
JoR was not calculated , neither you specified Spell Damage , scales and everything , neither you added White swings to that etc , you simple based your rotation of 100% consecration uptime which is Titanic logic.

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I'm still wanna hear how much tanking stats you can get as prot pala to compare it with warrior.

 

Instead wasting your time on nonsense trying to preach with false and out of thin air stuffs like "60 damage = 6 stamina", you could at least do your own investigation by your own, i am not going to waste my time for someone who is clearly out of it's way to even accept things not in his favor, only because you believe in something else, doesn't mean it is truth and you are now angry for that.

/Kind regards Killerduki

[DPS 6]

@killerduki

Hello! You know nothing, John!

Def stance is 130% not 110% ;-) 

Stamina is main tanking stat for ANY class. Thats why Dreadnaught rocks!

1k DPS is mistake, I mean 1k DPS. Also 100% uptime Conscerate was only to show you that pala aggro building is much lower in numbers than you're talking.

You can't do 500 SoR hits ;-) Unless you gets ~1-2-3k spell damage ;-)  Also, 40extra threat per stack(4x stacks=160 extra threat w/o any modifiers) - is blizzlike, you can check KTM files ;-)

Yeah, exorcism can hit for ~2k with crits, BUT! You're tank, so you can't get 600-700 spell damage, so average Exorcism is ~1k (You also can install Theorycraft addon and it will show it, if you cant math selfhand)

 

Again, my calculations was estimated, w/o JoW ofc(cause I aimed to show you your max TPS, and JoW will lower your TPS, cause no JoC).

 

AGAIN: SHOW ME, HOW MUCH HP, ARMOR, AP, SD you will get in your gear!

P.S. I made shitloads of spreadsheets for DPS/TPS meters for many classes. I know game mechanics better than you, just trust me. I'm playing wow from 2006. 2006-2009 I played in semi-casual mode, 2009-2014(pause) 2015-2017 I played in hardcore mode, aiming to get each point for my guild, making raiding more efficient.

As I see, the only you're aiming is to feed ur ego with "PALA CAN TANK!"

[Roxanne Flowers 15]

"You can lead a man to water, but you cannot make him THINK."

[killerduki 54]

42 minutes ago, DPS said:

@killerduki

Hello! You know nothing, John!

Def stance is 130% not 110% ;-) 

Stamina is main tanking stat for ANY class. Thats why Dreadnaught rocks!

1k DPS is mistake, I mean 1k DPS. Also 100% uptime Conscerate was only to show you that pala aggro building is much lower in numbers than you're talking.

You can't do 500 SoR hits ;-) Unless you gets ~1-2-3k spell damage ;-)  Also, 40extra threat per stack(4x stacks=160 extra threat w/o any modifiers) - is blizzlike, you can check KTM files ;-)

Yeah, exorcism can hit for ~2k with crits, BUT! You're tank, so you can't get 600-700 spell damage, so average Exorcism is ~1k (You also can install Theorycraft addon and it will show it, if you cant math selfhand)

 

Again, my calculations was estimated, w/o JoW ofc(cause I aimed to show you your max TPS, and JoW will lower your TPS, cause no JoC).

 

AGAIN: SHOW ME, HOW MUCH HP, ARMOR, AP, SD you will get in your gear!

P.S. I made shitloads of spreadsheets for DPS/TPS meters for many classes. I know game mechanics better than you, just trust me. I'm playing wow from 2006. 2006-2009 I played in semi-casual mode, 2009-2014(pause) 2015-2017 I played in hardcore mode, aiming to get each point for my guild, making raiding more efficient.

As I see, the only you're aiming is to feed ur ego with "PALA CAN TANK!"

You want to be more Kamikaze , well yeah :)

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Def stance is 130% not 110% ;-) 

It is not even 130% threats increase, it is only 30% more threats.

Paladin is 10% more threats to white hits (thanks to one-handed weapon spec) and 90% more threats to Holy damage (which is majority damage it does with SoR etc).

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Stamina is main tanking stat for ANY class. Thats why Dreadnaught rocks!

I never denied that is main tanking stat for ANY class, i just pointed out that Block Value is better stat than Stamina. (your logic everyone seen was 60 dmg = 6 stamina - kamikaze logic).

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1k DPS is mistake, I mean 1k DPS. Also 100% uptime Conscerate was only to show you that pala aggro building is much lower in numbers than you're talking.

What you just said "1k DPS is misteake, i mean 1k DPS" is imo kamikaze and funny to read , but let me assume you are russian and there is language barrier, at least i will try to make you happy by trying to get some common sense at your point.

First of all , Paladins should never use 100% consecration uptime , it is bad tanking and so much lower aggro compare to any other ability , unless you AoE tank , this ability is completely useless and mana inefficient . You might do it 1-2 times as a burst at beginning, but never more than that.

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You can't do 500 SoR hits ;-) Unless you gets ~1-2-3k spell damage ;-)  Also, 40extra threat per stack(4x stacks=160 extra threat w/o any modifiers) - is blizzlike, you can check KTM files ;-)

You clearly have no clue how SoR work , i am sorry but this is your own problem , SoR indeed can do 500 damage with lot spell damage (i welcome Theloras to show you some of his experiments with the current content , not the Naxx content as you tend to talk).

The 40 extra threat you talk about Holy Shield are not 40 if you have lot spell damage.

Your Blizzlike theory and logic is based of some private server client or game default client (where we all witnessed Holy Resistance there but was server side fixed). There are 2 different thing between "Client Side" and "Game script" .

KTM is addon based on some modifications and is not correct , you can see in KTM files mana gained from Blessing of Wisdom increase threat, but in reality it's not increasing at all. Your logic again goes Titanic.

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Yeah, exorcism can hit for ~2k with crits, BUT! You're tank, so you can't get 600-700 spell damage, so average Exorcism is ~1k (You also can install Theorycraft addon and it will show it, if you cant math selfhand)

Yes , you can get 500 or 700 Spell Damage as a Tank , Flask will say hello + Spell Damage Weapon + Spell Damage elixir + Spell Damage oil + Spell Damage enchant on weapon + Spell Damage enchant on Shoulders+ Spell Damage Trinket.

You logic again goes Titanic.

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Again, my calculations was estimated, w/o JoW ofc(cause I aimed to show you your max TPS, and JoW will lower your TPS, cause no JoC).

Your calculations was made out of thin air and nonsense , nowhere in your calculations you added white swings ,nowhere in your calculations you added spell damage , nowhere in your calculations you added 500 SoR damage , nowhere in your calculations you added Hammer of Wrath , nowhere in your calculations you added Judgement of Righteousness, nowhere in your calculations you added Rage starving for Warriors.

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AGAIN: SHOW ME, HOW MUCH HP, ARMOR, AP, SD you will get in your gear!

Make your own calculations as theory expert you yourself claimed . I am not going to bother as i know it is pointless to do it for some preacher talking nonsense out of thin air.

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P.S. I made shitloads of spreadsheets for DPS/TPS meters for many classes. I know game mechanics better than you, just trust me. I'm playing wow from 2006. 2006-2009 I played in semi-casual mode, 2009-2014(pause) 2015-2017 I played in hardcore mode, aiming to get each point for my guild, making raiding more efficient.

I play wow from 2005 either , if this makes you any better , i was only Paladin Tank who killed 11 bosses in Naxx during Vanilla and killed KT during TBC (because we had not enough time) and still had KT on 50% during Vanilla era previously.

You know nothing about Paladins , not to mention about the game mechanic , all your knowledge is based on nonsense and preaching.

I'd still love to see any of your spreadsheet and laugh little about it , because your false statements like "60 block value = 6 stamina" is imo funny to read in your spreadsheet.

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As I see, the only you're aiming is to feed ur ego with "PALA CAN TANK!"

Yes , they can tank and this is fact proven, not an ego.

"Speaking the truth is not ego , it is reality , denying the reality is protecting your own ego".

/Kind regards Killerduki

[DPS 6]

4 минуты назад, killerduki сказал:

You want to be more Kamikaze , well yeah :)

It is not even 130% threats increase, it is only 30% more threats.

Paladin is 10% more threats to white hits (thanks to one-handed weapon spec) and 90% more threats to Holy damage (which is majority damage it does with SoR etc).

I never denied that is main tanking stat for ANY class, i just pointed out that Block Value is better stat than Stamina. (your logic everyone seen was 60 dmg = 6 stamina - kamikaze logic).

What you just said "1k DPS is misteake, i mean 1k DPS" is imo kamikaze and funny to read , but let me assume you are russian and there is language barrier, at least i will try to make you happy by trying to get some common sense at your point.

First of all , Paladins should never use 100% consecration uptime , it is bad tanking and so much lower aggro compare to any other ability , unless you AoE tank , this ability is completely useless and mana inefficient . You might do it 1-2 times as a burst at beginning, but never more than that.

You clearly have no clue how SoR work , i am sorry but this is your own problem , SoR indeed can do 500 damage with lot spell damage (i welcome Theloras to show you some of his experiments with the current content , not the Naxx content as you tend to talk).

The 40 extra threat you talk about Holy Shield are not 40 if you have lot spell damage.

Your Blizzlike theory and logic is based of some private server client or game default client (where we all witnessed Holy Resistance there but was server side fixed). There are 2 different thing between "Client Side" and "Game script" .

KTM is addon based on some modifications and is not correct , you can see in KTM files mana gained from Blessing of Wisdom increase threat, but in reality it's not increasing at all. Your logic again goes Titanic.

Yes , you can get 500 or 700 Spell Damage as a Tank , Flask will say hello + Spell Damage Weapon + Spell Damage elixir + Spell Damage oil + Spell Damage enchant on weapon + Spell Damage enchant on Shoulders+ Spell Damage Trinket.

You logic again goes Titanic.

Your calculations was made out of thin air and nonsense , nowhere in your calculations you added white swings ,nowhere in your calculations you added spell damage , nowhere in your calculations you added 500 SoR damage , nowhere in your calculations you added Hammer of Wrath , nowhere in your calculations you added Judgement of Righteousness, nowhere in your calculations you added Rage starving for Warriors.

Make your own calculations as theory expert you yourself claimed . I am not going to bother as i know it is pointless to do it for some preacher talking nonsense out of thin air.

I play wow from 2005 either , if this makes you any better , i was only Paladin Tank who killed 11 bosses in Naxx during Vanilla and killed KT during TBC (because we had not enough time) and still had KT on 50% during Vanilla era previously.

You know nothing about Paladins , not to mention about the game mechanic , all your knowledge is based on nonsense and preaching.

I'd still love to see any of your spreadsheet and laugh little about it , because your false statements like "60 block value = 6 stamina" is imo funny to read in your spreadsheet.

Yes , they can tank and this is fact proven, not an ego.

"Speaking the truth is not ego , it is reality , denying the reality is protecting your own ego".

/Kind regards Killerduki

Yeah, lol I was mean 1k TPS, not DPS. Just double mistake in a row XD

100% = x1 130% = x1.3  math rules =) You seen when you got zerker buff at battlegrounds it told you that your dmg is 130% ;-)

 

40 extra threat from Holy Shield can't be modified by spell damage, only with +threat buffs. Since it not doing any dmg!

WHAT IS HOLY SHIELD?

- Its buff(orly? jk) while its active, each time you block, attacker gets 130+Your spelldamage*0.05 Holy damage (with 1k spell damage it will hit for 180 only!!!!) , and in additional it will provide you 40 extra threat. So with 1000 spell damage, sanc aura and Rfury buff we will generate 416 threat at each charge. We have 4x charges = Holy shield with that buffs will provides us 1665 threat with 10sec CD = 167 TPS.

 

WHAT IS SEAL OF RIGHTEOUSNESS?

- Its buff(orly? jk) while its active, each time you attack with your auto-attack, attacket gets 30(with 1.6 speed) or 60 (with 2.8 speed) damage + Your spell damage*0.16(for 1.6 speed), and *0.3 for 2.8 speed. Mean, with 1000 spell damage and 1.6 weapon(avg dmg vs boss 220)/2.8 weapon(avg dmg vs boss 480) the results will be: 190 holy and 220 white for 1.6 speed, and 360 holy and 480 white for 2.8 speed. 

TPS result with sanc aura and rfury: 385 TPS for 1.6 and 440 TPS for 2.8. Yeah pretty huge numbers for auto-attack only, but thats req 1000(!) SPELL DAMAGE.

And still, coefs are bugged, since they should be 10% at any weap speed for SoR. ;-)

Ofc, you can get full Spelldamage gear+buffs, but you're wasting your money for nothing, and the most important thing, you're wasting FLASK OF THE TITANS! You're wasting tanking stats that you need to survive. Ofc, you can get more healers to your raid, but thats mean that WHOLE RAID should work for 1 pala tank! 

When warrior is working for  whole raid! 

 

 

What about fury warriors tanks?

Fury in semi-tanking gear is going with ~1800-2000 AP, ~30% crit and hit capped. Btw that stats is much lower level than I calculated few spells for your pally:

So, with Castigator, non-crit BT will hit boss for ~800, avg dmg(counting crit and impale) will be ~1200 vs boss, with 6sec CD and 130% modify = ~260TPS

Heroic strike? When you're tanking as fury in semi-tanking gear, you got shitloads of rage, so you can spam HS: 

~1400 aggro per Heroic strike (counted impale, def stance, crit). With 1H and 30% crit you can get ~95+ Flurry uptime= your attack speed ~2.0.

So, spamming HS will provide you ~700TPS with 30% to crit, ~2000 AP in def stance.

Revenge and Sunder armor isn't counted. Also your attacks is much faster than paladin's so dodges/parry isn't so critical for fury as resists for pala.

Also, if you isn't crit immune and not using shield block so offten, you can buff your TPS with Enrage talent, and ofc Death Wish and Recklessness can push you miles away from your ignite mages in KTM.

 

So, we compared 2x spells from pala tanker and fwar, while pala get huge handicap (1000spell damage and 1500 AP was used in pala calculations, while warrior's stats was only 2000AP and 30%crit, thats is pretty common numbers for fury warriors)

 

 

If you don't like my pala calcs - feel free to show your own. I'll be glad to see it ;-)

[Whitewolf 1]

You forgot armor reductions and damage reduction caused by defensive stance.

Not to be a stickler, but holy shield also gets a 20% increased threat modifier.

[killerduki 54]

45 minutes ago, DPS said:

Yeah, lol I was mean 1k TPS, not DPS. Just double mistake in a row XD

100% = x1 130% = x1.3  math rules =) You seen when you got zerker buff at battlegrounds it told you that your dmg is 130% ;-)

 

40 extra threat from Holy Shield can't be modified by spell damage, only with +threat buffs. Since it not doing any dmg!

WHAT IS HOLY SHIELD?

- Its buff(orly? jk) while its active, each time you block, attacker gets 130+Your spelldamage*0.05 Holy damage (with 1k spell damage it will hit for 180 only!!!!) , and in additional it will provide you 40 extra threat. So with 1000 spell damage, sanc aura and Rfury buff we will generate 416 threat at each charge. We have 4x charges = Holy shield with that buffs will provides us 1665 threat with 10sec CD = 167 TPS.

 

WHAT IS SEAL OF RIGHTEOUSNESS?

- Its buff(orly? jk) while its active, each time you attack with your auto-attack, attacket gets 30(with 1.6 speed) or 60 (with 2.8 speed) damage + Your spell damage*0.16(for 1.6 speed), and *0.3 for 2.8 speed. Mean, with 1000 spell damage and 1.6 weapon(avg dmg vs boss 220)/2.8 weapon(avg dmg vs boss 480) the results will be: 190 holy and 220 white for 1.6 speed, and 360 holy and 480 white for 2.8 speed. 

TPS result with sanc aura and rfury: 385 TPS for 1.6 and 440 TPS for 2.8. Yeah pretty huge numbers for auto-attack only, but thats req 1000(!) SPELL DAMAGE.

And still, coefs are bugged, since they should be 10% at any weap speed for SoR. ;-)

Ofc, you can get full Spelldamage gear+buffs, but you're wasting your money for nothing, and the most important thing, you're wasting FLASK OF THE TITANS! You're wasting tanking stats that you need to survive. Ofc, you can get more healers to your raid, but thats mean that WHOLE RAID should work for 1 pala tank! 

When warrior is working for  whole raid! 

 

 

What about fury warriors tanks?

Fury in semi-tanking gear is going with ~1800-2000 AP, ~30% crit and hit capped. Btw that stats is much lower level than I calculated few spells for your pally:

So, with Castigator, non-crit BT will hit boss for ~800, avg dmg(counting crit and impale) will be ~1200 vs boss, with 6sec CD and 130% modify = ~260TPS

Heroic strike? When you're tanking as fury in semi-tanking gear, you got shitloads of rage, so you can spam HS: 

~1400 aggro per Heroic strike (counted impale, def stance, crit). With 1H and 30% crit you can get ~95+ Flurry uptime= your attack speed ~2.0.

So, spamming HS will provide you ~700TPS with 30% to crit, ~2000 AP in def stance.

Revenge and Sunder armor isn't counted. Also your attacks is much faster than paladin's so dodges/parry isn't so critical for fury as resists for pala.

Also, if you isn't crit immune and not using shield block so offten, you can buff your TPS with Enrage talent, and ofc Death Wish and Recklessness can push you miles away from your ignite mages in KTM.

 

So, we compared 2x spells from pala tanker and fwar, while pala get huge handicap (1000spell damage and 1500 AP was used in pala calculations, while warrior's stats was only 2000AP and 30%crit, thats is pretty common numbers for fury warriors)

 

 

If you don't like my pala calcs - feel free to show your own. I'll be glad to see it ;-)

Quote

100% = x1 130% = x1.3  math rules =) You seen when you got zerker buff at battlegrounds it told you that your dmg is 130% ;-)

According to your logic then Paladin will have 110% for White Swings and 190% for Holy Damage.

Quote

40 extra threat from Holy Shield can't be modified by spell damage, only with +threat buffs. Since it not doing any dmg!

Quote

 

WHAT IS HOLY SHIELD?

- Its buff(orly? jk) while its active, each time you block, attacker gets 130+Your spelldamage*0.05 Holy damage (with 1k spell damage it will hit for 180 only!!!!) , and in additional it will provide you 40 extra threat. So with 1000 spell damage, sanc aura and Rfury buff we will generate 416 threat at each charge. We have 4x charges = Holy shield with that buffs will provides us 1665 threat with 10sec CD = 167 TPS.

 

Evidence for your claim?

Damage caused by Holy Shield causes 20% additional threat. Each block expends a charge. 4 charges.

Your logic again goes Titanic as always. You talk nonsense like always.
 

Quote

 

WHAT IS SEAL OF RIGHTEOUSNESS?

- Its buff(orly? jk) while its active, each time you attack with your auto-attack, attacket gets 30(with 1.6 speed) or 60 (with 2.8 speed) damage + Your spell damage*0.16(for 1.6 speed), and *0.3 for 2.8 speed. Mean, with 1000 spell damage and 1.6 weapon(avg dmg vs boss 220)/2.8 weapon(avg dmg vs boss 480) the results will be: 190 holy and 220 white for 1.6 speed, and 360 holy and 480 white for 2.8 speed. 

TPS result with sanc aura and rfury: 385 TPS for 1.6 and 440 TPS for 2.8. Yeah pretty huge numbers for auto-attack only, but thats req 1000(!) SPELL DAMAGE.

 

First of all , i am not using 1.6 Speed , second you forgot One-Handed weapon spec which increase damage to SoR by 10% , you forgot Imp SoR which will also increase damage to SoR , third you forgot Sanctity Aura .

Now , you said 360 Holy and 480 White for 2.8 speed.  when you combine them together in 1 , this will be 360 Threats by Holy + 324 by RF + 480 White = 1164 threats.

You did mention Sanctity Aura , but you never set that into your calculations , neither you did calculate 10% from One-Handed weap spec , neither you did calculate the Imp SoR.

You also forget to add "Proc Weapon" , because if you have any , it goes double procs "50% uptime" (example Thunderfury) which is really big upgrade compare to what you believe.

Quote

And still, coefs are bugged, since they should be 10% at any weap speed for SoR. ;-)

Evidence was given and your theory goes Titanic once again.

Quote

Ofc, you can get full Spelldamage gear+buffs, but you're wasting your money for nothing, and the most important thing, you're wasting FLASK OF THE TITANS! You're wasting tanking stats that you need to survive. Ofc, you can get more healers to your raid, but thats mean that WHOLE RAID should work for 1 pala tank! 

Same as your logic by using Fury Warrior as a Tank , look how nonsense you go for when you try to compare frogs with cabbage.
 

Quote

 

What about fury warriors tanks?

Fury in semi-tanking gear is going with ~1800-2000 AP, ~30% crit and hit capped. Btw that stats is much lower level than I calculated few spells for your pally:

So, with Castigator, non-crit BT will hit boss for ~800, avg dmg(counting crit and impale) will be ~1200 vs boss, with 6sec CD and 130% modify = ~260TPS

Heroic strike? When you're tanking as fury in semi-tanking gear, you got shitloads of rage, so you can spam HS: 

~1400 aggro per Heroic strike (counted impale, def stance, crit). With 1H and 30% crit you can get ~95+ Flurry uptime= your attack speed ~2.0.

So, spamming HS will provide you ~700TPS with 30% to crit, ~2000 AP in def stance.

Revenge and Sunder armor isn't counted. Also your attacks is much faster than paladin's so dodges/parry isn't so critical for fury as resists for pala.

Also, if you isn't crit immune and not using shield block so offten, you can buff your TPS with Enrage talent, and ofc Death Wish and Recklessness can push you miles away from your ignite mages in KTM.

 

Imagine Retribution Paladin who does crit with Seal of Command by 2.5k = 4k Threats per swing , Judgement of Command who can crit over 1k Damage 1.9k Threats, Vengeance who can proc and white swings who can crit over 1.5k or more.

When you talk about DPS spec Tanking then enjoy the example of Retribution Paladin tanking.

Your 1400 Aggro per Heroic strike goes Titanic when Seal of Command will do 4000 threats per Crit.

Quote

So, we compared 2x spells from pala tanker and fwar, while pala get huge handicap (1000spell damage and 1500 AP was used in pala calculations, while warrior's stats was only 2000AP and 30%crit, thats is pretty common numbers for fury warriors)

You try to push over with your propaganda as "Fury Warrior Tanking" , then "Retribution Paladin Tanking" will turn your warrior into Dust.

4 minutes ago, Whitewolf said:

You forgot armor reductions and damage reduction caused by defensive stance.

Not to be a stickler, but holy shield also gets a 20% increased threat modifier.

^^ Exactly what he will try to neglect and ignore ^^ , well said.

/Kind regards Killerduki

[Whitewolf 1]

58 minutes ago, killerduki said:

^^ Exactly what he will try to neglect and ignore ^^ , well said.

/Kind regards Killerduki

Using the numbers provided without adding in armor reductions and d-stance, the numbers he provided strongly hint at a 2.7-2.8 speed weapon for the HS uses. Add in flurry and BT and damage reductions; and the warrior would be getting roughly 500 TPS. Funny enough, he would still get more threat from spamming sunders, barely, but still. Plus it would be cheaper on the rage because it is cheaper in cost and you can generate rage with auto attacks.

[killerduki 54]

49 minutes ago, Whitewolf said:

Using the numbers provided without adding in armor reductions and d-stance, the numbers he provided strongly hint at a 2.7-2.8 speed weapon for the HS uses. Add in flurry and BT and damage reductions; and the warrior would be getting roughly 500 TPS. Funny enough, he would still get more threat from spamming sunders, barely, but still. Plus it would be cheaper on the rage because it is cheaper in cost and you can generate rage with auto attacks.

Another thing he don't calculate is Miss and Dodge he will do with his abilities + Glancing Blows with his white swings.

Paladins might be subject to Glancing Blows , miss and dodge either for white swings  , but Holy Damage will not be subject to resist by Seal of Righteousness. Even if you do Glancing Blow with your white swing , SoR will still do the full amount of damage.

/Kind regards Killerduki

[Whitewolf 1]

On 09/08/2017 at 3:45 AM, flowqz said:

Because its fun. i just dont get why ppl try to defend a spec, which is obviously inferior. but i guess its funny when your mt paly gets blasted away at rag, cant taunt satura, 4horsemen etc.

if you have fun with it, fine. but dont try to make it sound like its a great idea. as i said i like the idea of an aoe tanking paladin, why not capitalize on an aspect where they are way ahead of other tanks?

I just don't get why people have bash on people who want to play a certain way even though it affects them none. Obviously the spec isn't inferior because there are fights that have been mentioned that a paladin has an easier time on. A paladin would get blasted away on ragnaros as much a a warrior. They have the same resist gear. There is a reason you have 2 tanks.

Why isn't a paladin tank a great idea? Obviously Blizzard thought it was because they decided to support it in TBC when Tigole and Furor had less of a monopoly on class design. And a main tank paladin does capitalize on AoE regardless.

[Undertanker 88]

Can you stop with the full post quotes?

@killerduki

WTF are you talking about with a pally has more avoidance than warrior.  We have access to the same off pieces and get the same amount of +def and avoidance in latents.    It's one thing to promote an idea, it's another to just make up bullshit thoughts and try to brainwash the uninformed.

Quit posting screenshots of "the glory days", and actually logon and use that Thunderfury for more than 1 week.

[killerduki 54]

10 hours ago, Undertanker said:

Can you stop with the full post quotes?

@killerduki

WTF are you talking about with a pally has more avoidance than warrior.  We have access to the same off pieces and get the same amount of +def and avoidance in latents.    It's one thing to promote an idea, it's another to just make up bullshit thoughts and try to brainwash the uninformed.

Quit posting screenshots of "the glory days", and actually logon and use that Thunderfury for more than 1 week.

If i don't use quotes , people will not see at what part i am answering and it feels stupid thus they will call me ignorant , quoting each statement means not ignoring it.

My point is that Warrior is mainly focused on Tier Gear while Paladin is mainly focused on Offset Gear.

Avoidance for Warrior is threats wiping and is terrible choice, while Tier Gear offers mainly Block Value + Stamina.

Paladin dodge also scale higher than Warrior with Agility.

Avoidance for Paladin will not wipe it's threat like Warrior and is only choice to use.

Nope , i am not going to play on a Project who literally invented unblizzlike ways until they reverse it, removing something that was proven and denied the evidence.

/Kind regards Killerduki

[Whitewolf 1]

3 hours ago, killerduki said:

My point is that Warrior is mainly focused on Tier Gear while Paladin is mainly focused on Offset Gear.

Avoidance for Warrior is threats wiping and is terrible choice, while Tier Gear offers mainly Block Value + Stamina.

Paladin dodge also scale higher than Warrior with Agility.

Avoidance for Paladin will not wipe it's threat like Warrior and is only choice to use.

Nope , i am not going to play on a Project who literally invented unblizzlike ways until they reverse it, removing something that was proven and denied the evidence.

/Kind regards Killerduki

I understand why you don't want to play anymore, but you not playing is not going to affect anyone but yourself. If you were to make new videos of "groundbreaking" it would increase the amount of visible information that others can use for reference and to learn from; which is something you seem to pride yourself in.

[Silverlan 0]

You are still repeating that paladins get twice the amount of procs than warriors which is simply untrue.

I'm not going to go into detail as the other thread covers this, but by saying SoR generates twice as many procs as a warrior is only correct if the warrior is using Auto attacks only. This is obviously never the case. 

 

Like I say, I'm not going into detail or arguing if paladins or warriors get more procs, just correcting this fallacy

Edited September 10, 2017 by Silverlan
Spelling

[killerduki 54]

3 hours ago, Silverlan said:

You are still repeating that paladins get twice the amount of procs than warriors which is simply untrue.

I'm not going to go into detail as the other thread covers this, but by saying SoR generates twice as many procs as a warrior is only correct if the warrior is using Auto attacks only. This is obviously never the case. 

 

Like I say, I'm not going into detail or arguing if paladins or warriors get more procs, just correcting this fallacy

SoR land on each swing , this make each swing has 50% proc rate compare to Warrior 25%.

Even if warrior attempt to burn all his CD's , it will have barely 35% proc , especially when you question Rage and threat optimization , it will simple go lower at any corner and any case.

4 hours ago, Whitewolf said:

I understand why you don't want to play anymore, but you not playing is not going to affect anyone but yourself. If you were to make new videos of "groundbreaking" it would increase the amount of visible information that others can use for reference and to learn from; which is something you seem to pride yourself in.

I already made enough visible information and there is no point to do something for someone else beside me , i clearly don't care what people demand as long i can't enjoy in something which is not Blizzlike (credits goes to Crestfall and their beta testers involving).

Thus , there are already enough information visible shown in my youtube channel.

/Kind regards Killerduki

[DPS 6]

@killerduki

@Whitewolf

Okay, someone cant read as I see:

yes, its 20% Holy Shield more threat/dmg, but on this server its just flat 40threat. In general, 40 threat is much more than 20%, so 40more threat is huge handicap for you ;-)

Pala theat mod is 100% not 110% check KTM ;-)

Sanc aura was mention in calculations. You can make your own mats, also +10% white dmg counted too! 

Also, if you're started to talk about TF and double procs - warrior got shield slam/revenge/sunder. They can proc TF too, so warrior will get more procs of TF ;-)

Ret pala need 2H weapon to get 2.5k crits. While Fury tank was counted as 1H+Shield, not 2x 1h weapons.

Also, dodge/parry didn't counted (to be fair both for pala and warr, so thats not changing anything)

Glancing blows? - there is no glancing blows for HS/BT ;-) And while fury speced tank - you get enough rage for 90+% HS uptime.

Again: I compared Fury warrior with semi-tanking gear and with shield VS prot pala. Any 2H ret pala wasn't mention as tank, cause you still need shield to tank.

Armor and def stance was counted too.

 

Why there is such results for fury warrior? Because fury warriors gets lots of AP and crit. Thats why they are always on top lines in KTM with Zerker/Battle stance, Salvation (w/o def stance and with salvation, warrior threat mod is 0.56 and 1.3 (THAT IS MORE THAN TWICE HIGHER!) with def stance!)

 

Again about TF: pala gets 2 hits that can proc TF each 1.9 sec. ( 20 attacks that can proc TF in 19sec)

Warrior: each 1.9 + 3 additional attacks per rotation round (revenge+2x sunders) (19 attacks that can prof TF in 19sec), yeah, pala  willl gets like 5%more TF procs(not so imbalance as you stated)

Also, avoidance is not ruining warrior's threat regen. Since you need only ~10rage per second for your tanking rotation. If you dont have enough rage that mean you're using too much HS, or you're tanking ZG with T3 gear.

 

 

@whitewolf 

Pala gets knockbacked at ragna cause he dont  have intercept, while warrior can simply run back before knockback+intercept.

 

 

Again, killerduki, show me full maths for you'r gear! I wanna to see how much HP you're planning to get with flask of supreme power+full spelldamage gear.

Also, there will be interesting to watch your calculations for you'r threat regen with your stats. Or thats too hard for you?

[Xaph 1]

Everyone in this thread seems to not address what the previous person said.

The question is pretty straightforward.... Killerduki's only real retort to what has been stated is TPS of Paladin vs. Warrior. All we need to do then is calculate TPS of Pally, obviously not using DPS's silly comparison to Fury, as we are talking about tanks and not outright TPS.

The only information we need, which has never been stated in this thread yet, is the stats of a raid buffed prot paladin in BIS Naxx gear. The working assumption is that mana is infinite because of JoW, and that rage is variable because of avoidance. Therefore we can easily calculate what Paladin TPS is if someone actually posted the stats instead of constantly making up random numbers and saying "go see for yourself". Until the actual stats are posted, everyone is comparing what Killerduki has called "frogs to cabbages". (Best analogy ever)

[killerduki 54]

6 minutes ago, DPS said:

@killerduki

@Whitewolf

Okay, someone cant read as I see:

yes, its 20% Holy Shield more threat/dmg, but on this server its just flat 40threat. In general, 40 threat is much more than 20%, so 40more threat is huge handicap for you ;-)

Pala theat mod is 100% not 110% check KTM ;-)

Sanc aura was mention in calculations. You can make your own mats, also +10% white dmg counted too! 

Also, if you're started to talk about TF and double procs - warrior got shield slam/revenge/sunder. They can proc TF too, so warrior will get more procs of TF ;-)

Ret pala need 2H weapon to get 2.5k crits. While Fury tank was counted as 1H+Shield, not 2x 1h weapons.

Also, dodge/parry didn't counted (to be fair both for pala and warr, so thats not changing anything)

Glancing blows? - there is no glancing blows for HS/BT ;-) And while fury speced tank - you get enough rage for 90+% HS uptime.

Again: I compared Fury warrior with semi-tanking gear and with shield VS prot pala. Any 2H ret pala wasn't mention as tank, cause you still need shield to tank.

Armor and def stance was counted too.

 

Why there is such results for fury warrior? Because fury warriors gets lots of AP and crit. Thats why they are always on top lines in KTM with Zerker/Battle stance, Salvation (w/o def stance and with salvation, warrior threat mod is 0.56 and 1.3 (THAT IS MORE THAN TWICE HIGHER!) with def stance!)

 

Again about TF: pala gets 2 hits that can proc TF each 1.9 sec. ( 20 attacks that can proc TF in 19sec)

Warrior: each 1.9 + 3 additional attacks per rotation round (revenge+2x sunders) (19 attacks that can prof TF in 19sec), yeah, pala  willl gets like 5%more TF procs(not so imbalance as you stated)

Also, avoidance is not ruining warrior's threat regen. Since you need only ~10rage per second for your tanking rotation. If you dont have enough rage that mean you're using too much HS, or you're tanking ZG with T3 gear.

 

 

@whitewolf 

Pala gets knockbacked at ragna cause he dont  have intercept, while warrior can simply run back before knockback+intercept.

 

 

Again, killerduki, show me full maths for you'r gear! I wanna to see how much HP you're planning to get with flask of supreme power+full spelldamage gear.

Also, there will be interesting to watch your calculations for you'r threat regen with your stats. Or thats too hard for you?

Quote

Okay, someone cant read as I see:

yes, its 20% Holy Shield more threat/dmg, but on this server its just flat 40threat. In general, 40 threat is much more than 20%, so 40more threat is huge handicap for you ;-)

I don't care how it is in the server , you have bugtracker , feel free to report it , i am based off Retail values dating back from 2006.

Quote

Pala theat mod is 100% not 110% check KTM ;-)

It's neither 100% , neither 110% .

It is 90% more threats thanks to Righteous Fury , speaking "check KTM" is just Garbage because it is incorrect addon , i have even Video evidence showing this addon working incorrect values . Your logic again is Titanic.

Quote

Sanc aura was mention in calculations. You can make your own mats, also +10% white dmg counted too! 

Nowhere in your calculations is mention this at all , neither factored any other things mentioned.

Quote

Also, if you're started to talk about TF and double procs - warrior got shield slam/revenge/sunder. They can proc TF too, so warrior will get more procs of TF ;-)

No and no , Warrior will never have more procs than Paladin , Paladin proc rate is 50% each swing , Warrior will have to deal with 2 things : Global CD's and Rage Starvation , even if he only focus Sunders without using anything else, it will still be worse since his threats will go Titanic.

Quote

Ret pala need 2H weapon to get 2.5k crits. While Fury tank was counted as 1H+Shield, not 2x 1h weapons.

Same as Warrior damage get wiped off using Defensive stance on his damage by 10% and thus Armor Reduction will reduce all the calculations  you said by Titanic amounts.

Ret Pala can still go 1h+shield and still do 10 times more threats than Fury Warrior.

Quote

Also, dodge/parry didn't counted (to be fair both for pala and warr, so thats not changing anything)

Paladin benefit from Parry , it makes his next swing faster = extra threats.

For Warrior dodge is Rage starvation while for Paladin it changes nothing and is only 1 swing dodge.

Miss for Warrior Ability means completely miss and wasted Rage , for Paladin Seal of Righteousness there is no Resist and does full amount of Damage.

Quote

Glancing blows? - there is no glancing blows for HS/BT ;-) And while fury speced tank - you get enough rage for 90+% HS uptime.

HS/BT don't have Glancing blows , but they have Miss. Your white swings (As Fury Spec) will do Glancing Blows , Paladin even if he do Glancing Blows , his Seal will still do full amount of damage.

Show me any video with evidence from Elysium current timeline that you would do 90%+ HS uptime , let me see how you would survive with Rage. (your logic is again Titanic).

Fury Specced tank you should compare with Retri Specced tank , because you tend to propagate frogs and cabbages, Retri specced tank will make your fury Dust on threats with Vengeance.

Quote

Again: I compared Fury warrior with semi-tanking gear and with shield VS prot pala. Any 2H ret pala wasn't mention as tank, cause you still need shield to tank.

You compare frogs with cabbages , first of all when you compare DPS spec then you should compare it with another DPS spec, Retribution Paladin can also use shields and 1h , Retribution Paladin tank will turn your Warrior Fury into dust with threats ,your logic as always again goes Titanic.

Quote

Armor and def stance was counted too.

How and where? I never seen any calculations , neither evidence for that.

Quote

Why there is such results for fury warrior?

I never seen any result at all, neither evidence for them , neither any proper comparison made with real values.

Quote

Because fury warriors gets lots of AP and crit. Thats why they are always on top lines in KTM with Zerker/Battle stance, Salvation (w/o def stance and with salvation, warrior threat mod is 0.56 and 1.3 (THAT IS MORE THAN TWICE HIGHER!) with def stance!)

Paladin Retribution threats skyrock compare to your awesome/dust Fury Warrior threats , being always on top line in KTM is indeed Paladin Thing , the only way for Warrior to be on top lines KTM, is if your group don't have any skilled Protection/Retribution Paladin.
 

Quote

 

Again about TF: pala gets 2 hits that can proc TF each 1.9 sec. ( 20 attacks that can proc TF in 19sec)

Warrior: each 1.9 + 3 additional attacks per rotation round (revenge+2x sunders) (19 attacks that can prof TF in 19sec), yeah, pala  willl gets like 5%more TF procs(not so imbalance as you stated)

 

Your theory is based of a Garbage,  first you need to make Rage , then you have to count your Abilities CD+Global CD.

You can't do 2x per swing , you gotta do 1 time per 1.5 Seconds thanks to Global CD's and your Abilities CD.

Which mean , Warrior each 3 seconds will perhaps do 2 times , Paladin each 1.9 seconds will perhaps do 2 times , this is huge difference.

Sunders work according to Global CD's , you can't do them faster than 1.5 Seconds , Revenge has it's own CD longer than the Global CD+it is Rage consumer.

Spamming only Sunders is also inefficient , it will cause Warrior do extremely low threats and loose aggro.

You logic is again Titanic , Paladin will always have shit tons of procs compare to Warrior , at least minimum 30% more if not 50% .

Quote

Also, avoidance is not ruining warrior's threat regen. Since you need only ~10rage per second for your tanking rotation. If you dont have enough rage that mean you're using too much HS, or you're tanking ZG with T3 gear.

You just mentioned TPS rotation with 100% HS uptime , all your logic goes Titanic with such statement like this.

Yes Dodge/Miss will ruin Warrior threats , it wont benefit him any Rage , it will be 0 Rage and this is final, the rest of the "Damage Taken" goes also extremely low , especially with T3 where Armor will cause Warrior get very low Rage. < --- Your logic again goes Titanic for using T3 "the best threats omg" .

Quote

Pala gets knockbacked at ragna cause he dont  have intercept, while warrior can simply run back before knockback+intercept.

Only noobs wont come back quickly enough when they get knockback , even if that happen , you always have 2nd tank to replace temporary and loose nothing at all , as i said the chances to get Knockback with FR cap are extremely low and unlikely to happen.
 

Quote

 

Again, killerduki, show me full maths for you'r gear! I wanna to see how much HP you're planning to get with flask of supreme power+full spelldamage gear.

Also, there will be interesting to watch your calculations for you'r threat regen with your stats. Or thats too hard for you?

 

You demand something i will never do for you , because i don't give a shit showing something to a Preacher who deny everything.

There was already Videos comparisons between Warrior Tanking single target (Boss) threats vs Paladin Tanking single target (Boss) threats , the difference was huge for Paladin at much shorter time compare to Warrior who required at least 2 minutes to reach the same amount of Paladin threat who has done within 1 minute.

/Kind regards Killerduki

[killerduki 54]

13 minutes ago, Xaph said:

Everyone in this thread seems to not address what the previous person said.

The question is pretty straightforward.... Killerduki's only real retort to what has been stated is TPS of Paladin vs. Warrior. All we need to do then is calculate TPS of Pally, obviously not using DPS's silly comparison to Fury, as we are talking about tanks and not outright TPS.

The only information we need, which has never been stated in this thread yet, is the stats of a raid buffed prot paladin in BIS Naxx gear. The working assumption is that mana is infinite because of JoW, and that rage is variable because of avoidance. Therefore we can easily calculate what Paladin TPS is if someone actually posted the stats instead of constantly making up random numbers and saying "go see for yourself". Until the actual stats are posted, everyone is comparing what Killerduki has called "frogs to cabbages". (Best analogy ever)

I agree with you about "Stats comparison" , but there is problem with that , Avoidance for both sides (Boss and Warrior/Paladin one)+Rage Starvation+Mana Regeneration/Wasting calculations+Rotation used and timed+ Damage and Armor Reduction on both sides (Boss and Warrior/Paladin one)+Global CD's and Abilities CD's.

There are many factors that can be deal breaker and it can't be measured easy with Math or Theory, neither anyone would dare to add them, the only thing you will see is "o my ability does this damage/that damage" without any factual evidence for that .

You need to put both most skilled Tank to tank any Boss with the Gear Standard mentioned , then you can do the comparison between them.

/Kind regards Killerduki

[Xaph 1]

Just now, killerduki said:

I agree with you about "Stats comparison" , but there is problem with that , Avoidance (Boss and Warrior/Paladin one)+Rage Starvation+Mana Regeneration calculations+Rotation used and timed.

There are many factors that can be deal breaker and it can't be measured easy with Math or Theory .

You need to put both most skilled Tank to tank any Boss with the Gear Standard mentioned , then you can do the comparison between them.

/Kind regards Killerduki

Yes, I realize there is a difference between theoretical optimum and actual performance, but it really is easy to calculate a paladin's theoretical maximum TPS if we had the stat values. Again, I would do the calculation assuming infinite mana based on JoW.

[Roxanne Flowers 15]

14 minutes ago, Xaph said:

Everyone in this thread seems to not address what the previous person said.

Because the first person to concede that their "opponent" has made a valid point will "lose" the argument ... and since that is not a tolerable outcome, it is far easier to just simply ignore what your "opponent" has said in the discussion and continue fighting the Straw Man.

[killerduki 54]

50 minutes ago, Xaph said:

Yes, I realize there is a difference between theoretical optimum and actual performance, but it really is easy to calculate a paladin's theoretical maximum TPS if we had the stat values. Again, I would do the calculation assuming infinite mana based on JoW.

https://forum.elysium-project.org/topic/34988-tankadin-jcs-dungeon-tanking-gear-guide/?do=findComment&comment=319907

Here is a list of Gear for Paladin (Naxx) , minor differences between what i would choose and him , but the list is that.

Keep in mind ,when there is calculation for stats , it has to be made for both sides with pure theorycraft involving as i said ,the most important things who affect threats :(Assuming Tank/Spank fight) Avoidance (boss and players)+Glancing Blows+Armor (boss and players)+Resistance (boss)+Procs+Global CD's+Ability CD's+Weapon Swing+Rage generation reduction by Armor for Incoming and outgoing swings+Bonuses like One-Handed Weap/Imp Sor/Divine Strength/RF.

/Kind regards Killerduki

[DPS 6]

Oh my God! You're really blind and selfish...

Im i bit busy right now. Will answer a bit later. Jsut noticed you're totally not readyig what I'm talking to you. Ret pala cant do 2.5k hits with shields, fury can't miss(cause of hit cap), KTM is 100% accurate addon(cause using blizzlike values), warrior need really low ammount of rage for rotation and other things you simply didn't read.

 

Will answer a bit later.