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roughly how much of a disadvantage will i be if i dont go human for fury endgame PVE.

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1 hour ago, Undertanker said:

300 vs 305.

Human vs non human rank 14 swords, no edgemasters

Sorry if I'm being an idiot but 14.82% in reduction of glancing blow penalty or in actual, total DPS?

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On 2017-03-16 at 9:08 AM, Storfan said:

Sorry if I'm being an idiot but 14.82% in reduction of glancing blow penalty or in actual, total DPS?

Just looking at actual numbers from our server (it makes no sense doing a general comparison across multiple servers), you might want to take that number with a huge grain of salt. Also I don't know what rank 14's from top guilds that doesn't use edgemasters he's been watching.

You simply can't put a a clearcut number on something like this because there are too many variables. For example, the warriors in the top guilds have such short kill times on bosses their diamond flasks and death wish has alot higher uptime than in an avg guild, which enables them to in turn have alot higher uptime on their heroic strikes which means their MH is barely affected by weapon skill since yellows doesn't glance. The same goes for threat, in alot of lesser guilds the furys have to use cleave instead of hs due to bad tanks which of course is alot more expensive.

Edited by Adeline

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1 hour ago, Adeline said:

 

Read the thread, pointing out comparisons from same guild, same fight, on same ID's.  Prob could have saved yourself some time.

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19 minutes ago, Undertanker said:

Read the thread, pointing out comparisons from same guild, same fight, on same ID's.  Prob could have saved yourself some time.

Just tell us then who these players are so that I can verify. From our server please, I don't care about the others.

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On 2017-03-16 at 1:10 PM, Undertanker said:

Do your own homework.

If you want any form of credibility when posting such an exact figure you may want to back it up with the actual subjects or data of your experiment instead of simply posting the method and expecting everybody to take it for granted. If it also was so exact that all of the different guilds data equated to the same "14-15 % difference" despite all of the variables as can be read in your previous post it should also be easily replicated with today's numbers. Without any of this, all I see is an arbitrary, non-verifiable number.

 

Edited by Adeline

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Lol it's not even remotely close to 14.82%, that is blatantly false. Feel free to download DPSmate which breaks down your white damage completely in game, or use the dps spreadsheet which calculates all this. Really it pens out to roughly 2-4% depending if you are horde or not (wf procs are always white hits), your gear, and if world buffed or not. As others have said if you are rocking full wbuffs then you are spamming HS/Cleave which takes glancing off the table for your MH for a significant amount of swings. For gods sakes the 5 skill reduces your glance penalty by 15%. You really think that increasing 40% of your white swings by 15% translates into +14.8% total dps gain?

 

 

 

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From the source code:

else if (skillDiff < -10) missChance -= (skillDiff + 10) * 0.4f - 2.0f; // 7% base chance to miss for big skill diff (%6 in 3.x)

else missChance -= skillDiff * 0.1f;

 

So with 300 weaponskill against a 315 defense skill, I would have +4% miss (on top of the 24% normal miss chance with DW).

And with 305 weaponskill only +1% miss. Am I reading this right?

 

This would mean that weapon skill (being >=305) is really really important on this server, since it gives extra hit (>3) in addition to improving glancing blow dmg.

Edited by Aderlass

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http://realmplayers.com/RaidStats/Ranking.aspx?Bosses=0B0C0D0E0F0G0H0I&realm=Ana

oh my god... is that a gnome second in overall dps? (not even using edgemasters) and a NE in 12th?  woah! how??

Oh yea, because theory crafting never takes into account skill and chance. IF and only IF every single thing goes to plan and that person executes to perfection then yes, a Human/Orc will be slightly better... because every player is perfect and every run is perfect, right?

Yes there are more Humans/Orc in the top 50+  but that's because everyone goes around talking about them being the best so everyone chooses them (and they are the iconic races). If more people just choose the classes they liked there would be a lot more race diversity at the top. You're talking slight %s here that hardly ever works out due to so many unforeseen events. Its a game, not an excel spreadsheet where all the numbers line up perfectly.

Same for tanking, people used to think Tauren or NE were the best, now brows every warrior sub-forum and there's a debate for every single race and argument for and against each because there are so many different situations where there is no one best race, its all skill and then based on itemization.

 Racial Min-Maxing is ridiculous.

Edited by Nocturn

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Min Maxing is a way to push yourself to be the best. I hold the #1 dps spot for all servers on a boss by doing .61% more dps than the #2. Orc Bloodfury definitely was the difference for me, and min maxing is the difference for many others whether it be just within their own guild or against the entire server.

Some people play this game to shoot the shit and just kill the bosses, others play the game to push themselves and each other as hard as possible to see what they are capable of if they tryhard. I've done both and found similar enjoyment in both environments, but at the moment my focus is pushing the envelope because quite frankly if I wasn't I'm not sure if I could motivate myself to clear MC for the 200th time.

Min - Maxing isn't everything to everyone and I can respect that, but it definitely plays a big role to a large portion of the player base.

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I agree with everything you just said, and i think min-maxing is a great way to push oneself. It plays a big role with myself. I just think it is over-rated when it comes to racials. That .61% could be due to better min-maxing in itemization and a better rotation/skill cap, other factors within the encounter/raid itself etc. It can't only be due to Bloodfury which is such a minimal AP gain anyways.

On paper yeah Human/Orc is better, but you still need the perfect gear and set up and things have to go your way, and it may help, but it won't help on every fight and on every instance run. Itemization and skill  along with random factors within any given run/encounter will trump it. I love forum posts dedicated to discussions about min-maxing and what is the best here and there, but the racials, even for a hardcore player do not justify one over the other unless you simply wanna compare stats and theories on paper.

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Dps also depends on how good your guilds dps is.  Shorter fights will award you with higher personal dps.  Your cooldowns will have higher uptime.

Better tanks equal better dps... (mob positioning, threat, etc) 

Plus all the other aforementioned points.

There are so many more important variables that determine your performance on the charts other than your race.

Edited by Jeetee

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On 2017-01-20 at 2:10 AM, Undertanker said:

Fetish of Sand Reaver still has its place of a lot of fights.  Warrior/Lock BiS item on a pure tank and spank fight.

If it's true tank and spank theres no way ppl pull aggro x) i only see it happen on brood, chrom

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I am now seriously thinking of whether I shall reroll gnome or not...

Its seriously better pvp-wise and looking a lot funnier.

AND, more importantly. Imagine a warrior/rogue queue for the cts/mala/aqr. 80% melee classes pick human as ally.

Being a gnome, you just pick deathbrindger, then crul, then death's sting, then hatchet.

While the others are waiting for their guns you just picks the ones, that are just slightly worse, but have 0 demand among humans.

And, that should also affect council, you've got to have more chances to loot other nasty things like dft and stuff...

Opinions of people playing dwarfs/gnomes on council?

Edited by Cheech

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7 minutes ago, Cheech said:

I am now seriously thinking of whether I shall reroll gnome or not...

Its seriously better pvp-wise and looking a lot funnier.

AND, more importantlu. Imagine a warrior/rogue queue for the cts/mala/aqr. 80% melee classes pick human as ally.

Being a gnome, you just pick deathbrindger, then crul, then death's sting, then hatchet.

While the others are waiting for their guns you just picks the ones, that are just slightly worse, but have 0 demand among humans.

And, thats should also affect council, you've got to have more chances to loot other nasty things like dft and stuff...

Opinions of people playing dwarfs/gnomes on council?

Your logic is off. A non-human would have even more reason to go for Maladath.

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4 минуты назад, Storfan сказал:

Your logic is off. A non-human would have even more reason to go for Maladath.

I mean, don't use swords at all. Go edges and use axes/daggers with +7 skill.

You either have to wait several months for your couple of swords, or get your not-so-bis-yet-quite-good (crul i.e.) weapons in several weeks and forget.

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If pvp is your focus then gnome is fantastic and a great choice. But dont try to justify the pve side of things lol. The non human would go edgemaster + maladath for glance cap

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You will not loose much at Endgame , probably 1-2% since it is only 30% of the overall swings, you can go full AP and Crit until you replace the "normal swings" into "crits" from the Table.

/Kind regards Killerduki

Edited by killerduki

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1 hour ago, killerduki said:

You will not loose much at Endgame , probably 1-2% since it is only 30% of the overall swings, you can go full AP and Crit until you replace the "normal swings" into "crits" from the Table.

/Kind regards Killerduki

No killerduki you mistook white and yellow hittables probably. Glancing will be always 40% on the white hit same as dodge miss and parry bock frontally. 

100 total hit - 40% glancing - 5.6% dodge - 24.6% miss (28% if 300 wep skill) + x%hit = white crit cap.

For me this is 44.8 and i have 15 hit on gear. Stacking crit over hit is better but just calculate your critical cap because raidbuff vs not can be 10% - 15% crit and if you sont have enough hit that additional crit will not be there. Im sure you know this killerduki its just for other people also.

 

Also glancing blows cannot crit, 5.6% dodge will always be there on both tables and 1% miss but im not sure about that 1% miss tbh so dont quote me on that.

Edited by mytchi3

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25 minutes ago, mytchi3 said:

No killerduki you mistook white and yellow hittables probably. Glancing will be always 40% on the white hit same as dodge miss and parry bock frontally. 

100 total hit - 40% glancing - 5.6% dodge - 24.6% miss (28% if 300 wep skill) + x%hit = white crit cap.

For me this is 44.8 and i have 15 hit on gear. Stacking crit over hit is better but just calculate your critical cap because raidbuff vs not can be 10% - 15% crit and if you sont have enough hit that additional crit will not be there. Im sure you know this killerduki its just for other people also.

 

Also glancing blows cannot crit, 5.6% dodge will always be there on both tables and 1% miss but im not sure about that 1% miss tbh so dont quote me on that.

You completely miss my point .

I said loosing 5 Weapon Skill will probably make you loose 1-2% of the DPS Endgame.

Not each swing will be Glancing Blow and the "Normal Hits" which are not "Glancing Blow" can be replaced with Crits.

/Kind regards Killerduki

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1 hour ago, killerduki said:

You completely miss my point .

I said loosing 5 Weapon Skill will probably make you loose 1-2% of the DPS Endgame.

Not each swing will be Glancing Blow and the "Normal Hits" which are not "Glancing Blow" can be replaced with Crits.

/Kind regards Killerduki

What does it matter if those hits that hit are crits? What matters is 40% is glancing blows and this is a dps loss if you have only 307 weapon skill as compared to 312 or more. 

Glancing blows weapon skill dmg increase.

300>305 = 65% to 85%
305>310 = 85% to 95%
310>314 = 95 to 99.25%

After putting the equip and comparing weapon skill of 307 and 312 with edgemasters hanguards as human and nonhuman difference was 4%. But on fight like Vael where you have infinite rage it was smaller  below 1% because in my calculation i used no white MH hits (HS or Cleave).

Before edgemasters difference was significant between 300 and 305.

 

Edited by mytchi3

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