blisslfutz

Why is balance druid so worse?

103 posts in this topic

18 hours ago, Keftenk said:

What class goes OOM in 2017?

 

On 8/24/2017 at 10:50 AM, Keftenk said:

If you're having mana issues then either something happened during the fight, you aren't correctly gear/enchanted, you aren't using the correct consumables, or your raid group is poor.

 

43 minutes ago, Ram said:

I just did some tests on Kronos PTR in full Naxx BIS gear and 480 dps was the best I could do before going oom.

There's a reason why Balance Druids were (and often still are) called OOMkins, while fans of the playstyle prefer the term Boomkin.

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2 hours ago, Rafale said:

That's interesting. How much hit do you need to be sure you take advantage of the crit talent?

Your goal shouldn't be to take advantage of the Crit talent since Moonkin doesn't have native Hit talents. Even 0% hit will utilize the Crit talent. Build for the fight is what I did and it worked just fine.

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1 hour ago, Roxanne Flowers said:

Boomkin

Weren't they called so when they added starfall, making extreme AoE bursts in arenas?

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Nah.  Moonkins were called OOMkins and in response the Balance Druids started calling themselves Boomkins in an attempt to counter the stereotype/insult.  More crit, more BOOM.  I myself had an interesting experience (back in the day over 10 years ago) running RFD with a Moonkin and having all the other spellcasters in the group commenting how they were "critting like crazy!" and that they'd never grouped with a Moonkin before and they INSISTED that I stay in Moonkin form so they could enjoy the Boomkin Aura.

It's part of the reason why I'm playing as a Balance Druid now too ... to relive the Boomkin experience.

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On 08/26/2017 at 6:06 AM, Ram said:

Just for the sake of saving mana I would go full hit on every slot where the crit / spell damage item available is not SIGNIFICANTLY better. I just did some tests on Kronos PTR in full Naxx BIS gear and 480 dps was the best I could do before going oom.

How much spell damage did you have? Crit? Hit? What buffs did you use? 480 seems really low for being fully raid buffed.

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480 means he's geared incorrectly, not using correct consumables, or his guild sucks. It's possible all three are the cause. I was pulling 600+ dps in pre-raid gear in BWL lol.

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9 hours ago, Keftenk said:

480 means he's geared incorrectly, not using correct consumables, or his guild sucks. It's possible all three are the cause. I was pulling 600+ dps in pre-raid gear in BWL lol.

That was what I was thinking. Maybe he was just attacking a dummy as it was a ptr. Or maybe kronos just doesn't have something working right; I don't know why though, druids are pretty straight forward.

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Yes, I attacked a target dummy. I used naxx gear and prioritized hit > crit (I used e.g. full bloodvine set with tailoring bonus over the naxx spell dmg robe, polarized leggings or whatever they are called and some random epic boots -> using hit where it makes sense) among with Flask, Brilliant Wizard Oil, Greater Arcane elixir, mageblood potion, spirit of zanza, nightfin soup, demonic runes and Major mana potions. I used one innervate and did just cast starfire and moonfire (mainly for the dot dps) and casted until I got major mana pot, demonic rune and innervate on cd and was completely oom.

In the beginning my dps was of course higher than 480 (it was around 650), but with shapeshifting for innervate and the flattening dps increase of the initial trinket use, the whole dps flattened down to 480 dps. In a short fight I would have performed better ofc, still 680 dps in full BIS gear is utter garbage.

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And that's the thing. Shorter fights is where Moonkin (with Starfire) excel and can actually compete. I never had BiS list in 1.8 on Nostalrius, but even in blues I was pulling 600+ on BWL bosses. Where as when I was testing AQ40 and Naxx on the PTR, I had a test run of ~1060dps from what I remember. This is why I developed the 70-second theory to prioritize gear around.

Most fights, even including AQ are within that range or just slightly over. I do understand Naxx complicates things since Naxx fights are inherently designed to be longer, but the basics can at least be established from that research.

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10 hours ago, Ram said:

Yes, I attacked a target dummy. I used naxx gear and prioritized hit > crit (I used e.g. full bloodvine set with tailoring bonus over the naxx spell dmg robe, polarized leggings or whatever they are called and some random epic boots -> using hit where it makes sense) among with Flask, Brilliant Wizard Oil, Greater Arcane elixir, mageblood potion, spirit of zanza, nightfin soup, demonic runes and Major mana potions. I used one innervate and did just cast starfire and moonfire (mainly for the dot dps) and casted until I got major mana pot, demonic rune and innervate on cd and was completely oom.

In the beginning my dps was of course higher than 480 (it was around 650), but with shapeshifting for innervate and the flattening dps increase of the initial trinket use, the whole dps flattened down to 480 dps. In a short fight I would have performed better ofc, still 680 dps in full BIS gear is utter garbage.

There are debuffs which are left out and even then frost mages shouldn't do too much more dps than you. Warlocks and fire mages just scale stupidly well.

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Frost mages have Arcane Power, Fire has Ignite, Locks have improve shadowbolt talent, owls have nature's grasp.

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Owls have the crit aura. At minimum you are looking at an average invisible dps of 30 and eventually up to 150+ as you progress. Arcane Power is nice but the average dps it adds pales in comparison to the aura. Ignite is pure broken and the improved shadowbolt talent is really nice, but they are caused by crits. Moonkin aura improves their effectiveness.

 

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On 8/22/2017 at 10:28 PM, Rafale said:

 

On 8/22/2017 at 5:42 PM, arbet said:

Yep, gimped by design. That's how hybrids were designed. You want to play a hybrid with lots of playstyle options, you don't get to be the best in any one role. I like that personally. Much better than the current design philosophy of making every class identical except in name.

I 100% disagree

2 moonkins should equal the dps of 2 mages.
But a moonkin and a mage should always outdamage 2 mages or 2 moonkins, because of the utility a moonkin can give a priest.

I find it sad nobody ever shared this concept.

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15 hours ago, Whitewolf said:

Owls have the crit aura. At minimum you are looking at an average invisible dps of 30 and eventually up to 150+ as you progress. Arcane Power is nice but the average dps it adds pales in comparison to the aura. Ignite is pure broken and the improved shadowbolt talent is really nice, but they are caused by crits. Moonkin aura improves their effectiveness.

 

Not quite. It's very possible it's different with Fire Mages as well as it scaling better with different gear, but here were findings from BWL:

Frost Mage: ~13.88DPS
Warlock: ~18.75DPS

I believe I did detail these findings in the massive stat weight thread I dumped my research into.

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On 31.8.2017 at 10:02 AM, Whitewolf said:

Owls have the crit aura. At minimum you are looking at an average invisible dps of 30 and eventually up to 150+ as you progress. Arcane Power is nice but the average dps it adds pales in comparison to the aura. Ignite is pure broken and the improved shadowbolt talent is really nice, but they are caused by crits. Moonkin aura improves their effectiveness.

 

frost mages have a +10% crit talent

fire mages have a +6% crit talent

warlocks have a +5% crit talent

all comparable with or better as the moonkin aura. For the dps the moonkin aura adds you better bring a proper dps class. 3% crit from the aura for 4 other people does not make up for the damage you lose by bringing a moonkin instead of a proper dps.

Plus in short fights the effect of arcane power does have an immense effect, especially when used with trinkets (suddenly your frostbolts crits do 1300 damage more than without arcane power). For fire the fact that ignite seems to be broken (like you say) on elysium, it is not the fault of fire mages per se. If ignite works properly, all fire mages add like 2-3k dps to the raid. The warlock shadowbolt debuff talent makes warlocks the strongest single target caster dps class and latest when you start mixing aq gear with bloodvine you will notice that. If threat is an issue, your tanks suck.

 

You can keep on running blindly through this world. Sure thing moonkin is fun to play and challenging to keep up with others in terms of dps, but your limited by the game design and that will never change unless you go to a custom server that has better stat usage for moonkins. It is not only boss peak dps that counts, but overall damage is much more important than just boss damage. You have mages with 30(!)% mana regen from mage armor and 10-15% (depending on build, so 40-45% total) from talents, evocation and mana gems and a lock with life tap compared to a moonkin with what again? Demonic runes and mana potions. and innervate, which also costs mana to use because you have to shapeshift twice in order to be able to dps again.

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1 hour ago, Ram said:

frost mages have a +10% crit talent

Winter's Chill is +2% critical hit chance that lasts 15 seconds and stacks up to 5 times and only affects/benefits Frost spells.  At 2.5 seconds per casting, this would require 12.5 seconds of casting (at range) to build the stack using Frostbolt only to +10% (if you're the only Frost Mage).  This is hardly an "always on" type of thing, but since it's a debuff, other party members can make use of the debuff if they're also using Frost spells.  However, Mages are pretty much the only class with meaningful Frost damage spells Druids (Arcane/Nature), Hunters (Nature/Fire), Paladins (Holy), Priests (Holy/Shadow) and Warlocks (Fire/Shadow) don't do Frost damage, for the most part.  Optimum deployment for fastest debuff stacking is 5 Frost Mages who all have this talent to build the max stack of debuffing very quickly (a single volley of Frostbolt from each of them) which would ultimately cost 5 talent points per Mage for a grand total of 25 talent points invested to bring +10% critical hit chance to Frost spells only for 5 Mages very quickly.

1 hour ago, Ram said:

fire mages have a +6% crit talent

Critical Mass offers the Fire Mage (and ONLY the Fire Mage) +6% critical hit chance with Fire spells.  This is a self only buff.  Costs 3 talent points for a +6% critical chance for 1 Fire Mage, with no benefits for others.

2 hours ago, Ram said:

warlocks have a +5% crit talent

Devastation offers +5% critical hit chance to the Warlock's own Destruction spells only.  This is a self only buff.  Costs 5 talent points for a +5% critical hit chance for 1 Warlock, with no benefits for others.

2 hours ago, Ram said:

moonkin aura

Moonkin Aura offers +3% critical hit chance to EVERY party member within 30 yards, regardless of spell school, and requires no casting or debuff stacking to get the benefit of the buff since it's just ON.  Costs 1 talent point for a +3% critical hit chance for self plus up to 4 others within 30 yards of the Moonkin.

So, the options are:

  • 5-25 talent points spent to achieve a +10% crit chance debuff stack that only applies to Frost (must have spent 30 talent points in Frost tree each)
  • 3 talent points spent to achieve +6% crit chance to own Fire spells only (must have spent 23 talent points in Fire tree)
  • 5 talent points spent to achieve +5% crit chance to own Destruction spells only (must have spent 15 talent points in Destruction tree)
  • 1 talent point spent to achieve +3% crit chance to EVERYONE'S spells while they stay within 30 yards of the Moonkin (must have spent 31 talent points in Balance)

Winter's chill is "great" only if everyone else is a Frost Mage (and has the same talent) and in a group of 5 Frost Mages is the equivalent to +10% to +50% crit chance (+10% each) at max debuff stacking for all 5 Frost Mages and costs 5 talent points to each Frost Mage to have.  Assuming everyone is a Frost Mage with the talent, that's +50% crit chance with Frost only for 25 talent points spent, or +2% crit chance per talent point.

Critical Mass is "great" for your own Fire spells, and that's it.  It offers +2% crit chance per talent point to self only.

Devastation is "great" for your own Destruction spells, and that's it.  It offers +1% crit chance per talent point to self only.

Moonkin form is "great" for every spellcaster in your party who is not also a Moonkin.  It offers +3% crit chance per talent point to party reqgardless of spell school and does not require debuff stacking since it is an "always on" aura for the cost of 1 (extra) talent point.  In a group of 5, this is adding +3% critical chance to up to 5 people, which equates to an up to +15% critical chance spead "evenly" amongst 5 party members.

Yes, Frost Mages, Fire Mages and Warlocks can achieve greater quantities of critical chance with their spells (as can Holy Paladins and Holy Priests with their Holy Spells), but that's because their effects are all Self Only, meaning that the "shape" of their benefit is "greater" but also "narrower" at the same time.  Moonkin Aura is a "lesser" yet at the same time "broader" benefit which compares quite favorably when looking at aggregate totals using an "area rule" method rather than compartmentalizing everything in terms of individual achievement(s) only (in a vacuum).  In that respect, Moonkin aura is a "generous" (to the point of altruistic) buff to the entire party which they effectively don't get "credit" for under the standard benchmark of DPS meters.  This makes it hard to quantify the contribution that Moonkin aura is ACTUALLY making in a way that actually accrues to the Moonkin's presence ... and since that quantification is difficult to do, most people don't do it at all and assign a value of ZERO to the aura rather than attribute the benefits granted to others to the existence of the Moonkin in the group.

What happens when everyone benefits, but none of the credit gets awarded?  Same thing that happens to all altruists ... they get taken advantage of and then discarded.

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23 minutes ago, Roxanne Flowers said:

What happens when everyone benefits, but none of the credit gets awarded?  Same thing that happens to all altruists ... they get taken advantage of and then discarded.

1) 3% spellcrit is quite huge indeed. Healing Paladins love crit because it's output and mana replenishment. Shamans and Priests utilize crit due to "Inspiration", the 25% armor buff is quite strong. Rolling ignites work best wenn high spellcrit is achieved - a moonkin helps a lot. There are more examples, but I just want to +1 your argumentation. It's sad that people focus so much on realmstats and don't recognize the support of something like a moonkin.

2) Compareable to moonkin aura: Rebirth. I don't know your raids, but most groups on private servers that I have seen are full of crazy min max dps who play so close to their threat-limit that they die from time to time. It's a very nice bonus for the raid wenn you can compensate for the loss of a top dps (especially at the beginning of a fight). In a fair world, their dps would be added to the rezzing druid for that fight :p

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12 hours ago, Ram said:

frost mages have a +10% crit talent

fire mages have a +6% crit talent

warlocks have a +5% crit talent

all comparable with or better as the moonkin aura. For the dps the moonkin aura adds you better bring a proper dps class. 3% crit from the aura for 4 other people does not make up for the damage you lose by bringing a moonkin instead of a proper dps.

Plus in short fights the effect of arcane power does have an immense effect, especially when used with trinkets (suddenly your frostbolts crits do 1300 damage more than without arcane power). For fire the fact that ignite seems to be broken (like you say) on elysium, it is not the fault of fire mages per se. If ignite works properly, all fire mages add like 2-3k dps to the raid. The warlock shadowbolt debuff talent makes warlocks the strongest single target caster dps class and latest when you start mixing aq gear with bloodvine you will notice that. If threat is an issue, your tanks suck.

 

You can keep on running blindly through this world. Sure thing moonkin is fun to play and challenging to keep up with others in terms of dps, but your limited by the game design and that will never change unless you go to a custom server that has better stat usage for moonkins. It is not only boss peak dps that counts, but overall damage is much more important than just boss damage. You have mages with 30(!)% mana regen from mage armor and 10-15% (depending on build, so 40-45% total) from talents, evocation and mana gems and a lock with life tap compared to a moonkin with what again? Demonic runes and mana potions. and innervate, which also costs mana to use because you have to shapeshift twice in order to be able to dps again.

You are the one apparently running blindly. Evocation lasts 8 seconds. 8 seconds of no damage. Mana gems are indeed beneficial. Mage armor...how much spirit are mages running fully buffed? 350? 400? Exciting right? Do you know what a mage can't do? Rez. Do you know what other thing they can't do? Heal. Want to know what they would rather pawn off onto a druid? Decurse.

If you judge a druid simply by the 80% of the dps of a mage in early raid tiers then you are missing out on the total contribution a boomkin can bring to a raid.

Yes, warlocks do the most dps. Why bring mages? You only need one, right?

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22 hours ago, Keftenk said:

I've always joked about just taking 1 Shadow Priest and 14 Warlocks.

Why not? The damage scaling they have would make up for the increased time it would take to get their gear...maybe.

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Oh, I'm fairly sure it'd be crazy as hell.
1 Shadow Priest, 14 Warlocks, 8-10 Paladins, then the rest can be the tank and melee composition haha.

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Basic misconceptions in this thread:

- combat ress is something that you plan to use in your raids (you should aim for not needing to use it)

- only owls are good for combat ress (healing druids can do it, too)

- crit aura is better than taking a proper dps class instead of a druids

- the whole raid should wait for our special snowflake moonkin to regenerate mana after each mob and waste buffs like pi and innervate on the snowflake, which would have a greater effect on other classes.

- the raid is formed to make the moonkin work instead of forming the player to make the raid.

 

Again, moonkin is fun and in short fights it can do substential amounts of dps, but its general performance is lowered by mana inefficiency.

 

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I don't know why mana ineffiiciency is still being brought up. This is a vanilla myth and always has been. If you're having mana issues then something during the fight went wrong, you aren't using correct consumables, you aren't using correct gear, or your raid sucks. There are exceptions to this, sure. Nefarion for instance drains you because your Innervate goes to the Shadow Priest.

Naxxramas will probably be the same. Otherwise sticking within or close to the 70-sec theory will make everything just fine.

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I mean clearing raids fast with chain pulling and no big mana breaks kills the moonkin's mana bar easier as the one of locks/mages. Then you do no dps because you drink, while the mages with armor+talent and the locks with life tap can already dps.

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Mob chaining like that your Innervate is for you and you should be using Wrath on the squishier targets versus Starfire. And with the off chance you do run out of mana, which should be due to unfortunate circumstances you switch to Starfire R1.

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