Jump to content
blisslfutz

Why is balance druid so worse?

Recommended Posts

The problem is you've just made a worse version of the frost mage, which is in every way better than a moonkin. The shadow priest by contrast brings a raid wide 15% shadow debuff to the table, meaning it can easily outdamage just having 1 more Warlock. The same is not true for druids, as feral or moonkin. The 3% crit buff is not worth trading another damage for. But if you want to play one, there isn't much stopping you. Being a unique clown that stands out in the crowd can be more fun than caster number X.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
23 minutes ago, Drain said:

The problem is you've just made a worse version of the frost mage, which is in every way better than a moonkin. The shadow priest by contrast brings a raid wide 15% shadow debuff to the table, meaning it can easily outdamage just having 1 more Warlock. The same is not true for druids, as feral or moonkin. The 3% crit buff is not worth trading another damage for. But if you want to play one, there isn't much stopping you. Being a unique clown that stands out in the crowd can be more fun than caster number X.

bullshit!

The moonkin druid got the moonglow talent and is a surprisingly strong offhealer (with healing set on). Have you every organized a raid during progressing? You are very happy about the moonkin if he can fill in the empty healing slot from time to time and he has no burden (like respec cost). Of course, this server is not blizzlike and only have 25 gold respec cost, but it's still a plus for moonkins to be solid offhealers. I beat full healing spec druids with 0 points in restoration as a feral, just with healing gear and skill.

And there are many more things that the frost mage will never be able to pull off.

It's so silly to say that a moonkin is just low dps. It's a hybrid class and that means you can do so much more. You can do stealth runs as a moonkin which the Frost Mage can't. You can sneak into bases in PvP unseen. You can even offtank Drakki without 0 points in feral, just use the fucking taunt when it's needed. What does that have to do with raiding? People need their BIS stuff for raiding, even a bwl/aq mage will be glad if you help him to get his Briarwood Reer. A moonkin is a valuable member of a raid and can do things that a frost mage can't do but help the raid group/pool. Do you get my point? xD

 

But I still suggest that anyone who wants to enjoy moonkin just plays retail. The vanilla playerbase of today is degenerated and dumb. Elitist jerks at it's finest. Just focussed on their realmplayers e-penis. Ignore these cunts or play retail ;)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I love balance druid, I'm not 60 yet, long way to go but I am enjoying the vanilla version of the class, even if the cata+ version is superior. It's fun, challenging, you have to be careful with how you use your mana and actually strategise your gameplay. It's surprisingly potent in PVP and I am consistently doing the highest damage in dungeons / groups. Also, being able to CC and damage someone at the same time is great. I don't think any other class has that?

 

People always come up to me and ask "Are you seriously a balance druid?" things like that. Yes I am, because I enjoy it. Play the class you enjoy... simple as that. Despite what high end elitist players will tell you, for the vast majority of people no class will be useless.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
11 hours ago, Mahtan said:

bullshit!

The moonkin druid got the moonglow talent and is a surprisingly strong offhealer (with healing set on). Have you every organized a raid during progressing? You are very happy about the moonkin if he can fill in the empty healing slot from time to time and he has no burden (like respec cost). Of course, this server is not blizzlike and only have 25 gold respec cost, but it's still a plus for moonkins to be solid offhealers. I beat full healing spec druids with 0 points in restoration as a feral, just with healing gear and skill.

And there are many more things that the frost mage will never be able to pull off.

It's so silly to say that a moonkin is just low dps. It's a hybrid class and that means you can do so much more. You can do stealth runs as a moonkin which the Frost Mage can't. You can sneak into bases in PvP unseen. You can even offtank Drakki without 0 points in feral, just use the fucking taunt when it's needed. What does that have to do with raiding? People need their BIS stuff for raiding, even a bwl/aq mage will be glad if you help him to get his Briarwood Reer. A moonkin is a valuable member of a raid and can do things that a frost mage can't do but help the raid group/pool. Do you get my point? xD

 

But I still suggest that anyone who wants to enjoy moonkin just plays retail. The vanilla playerbase of today is degenerated and dumb. Elitist jerks at it's finest. Just focussed on their realmplayers e-penis. Ignore these cunts or play retail ;)

the guy you quoted was obviously talking about a raidenviroment. if you are talking about 5-10mans you got a point.

if you are outhealing your restodruids as a feral, i imagine they have different tasks than you and / or are pretty damn bad. imagine the difference if you would be resto specced.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 hours ago, arbet said:

I love balance druid, I'm not 60 yet, long way to go but I am enjoying the vanilla version of the class, even if the cata+ version is superior.

Curious, superior how? You mean stronger or more interesting to play? I didn't play cata much but I like vanilla version of druid best of what I played, it seems smarter to play instead of more straightforward rotations?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Mage have 45% mana regen while casting, Druid got 15%

Druid got 0% pushback resistance, fire mage get 70%, and frost get ice barrier if spec frost and not arcane.

Mage got non completly useless set piece that allow them to have a base until it's their turn to get the few non tier SP piece. Druid need to compete with everyone else on the non tier piece.

Do druid even have threat reduction? 

I'm not saying Balance is completly useless in raid, but their dps will not be their number one quality. The BR / Mana Regen (using innervate on healer would be better spend) / Damage Bonus are what you bring.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, ProMeTheus112 said:

Curious, superior how? You mean stronger or more interesting to play? I didn't play cata much but I like vanilla version of druid best of what I played, it seems smarter to play instead of more straightforward rotations?

I mean more viable in raids. They were VERY strong in Cataclysm, I was regularly top dps in heroic 25 mans in the Deathwing raid. Especially in crowded fights, you could put MF&IS on every mob and do insane numbers. Although I could still beat Mages in pure damage output against single target. I don't know how they are in the current game as I quit when Cataclysm ended, but when I left the game they were very strong.

 

In vanilla I am aware they are supposedly not viable. I really enjoy playing it though. You are quite right there is more thought involved with which spells you use. I only wish IS was in vanilla.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Here's my advice to anyone wanting to make Moonkin work on a competitive level.

* Apply to a top-tier guild like Coalition.
* Get accepted.
* Befriend a Priest for PW:S.
* Be good.

KEK

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Consider this other datapoint on the difference between Druid mana management and Mage/Paladin/Priest/Warlock.

Our "free" spell casting talent, Omen of Clarity, requires you to MELEE HIT stuff in order to proc, and last I checked it's on a 2 PPM rate, although once procced it does have a 10 minute duration (so it can be "carried" from fight to fight).  What adds insult to injury though is that it's locked behind Natural Weapons, a 5 point talent for increasing weapon damage.  So we spend 6 talents to earn a "free spell cost" proc from doing melee.

By contrast, Mages get their clearcasting proc for "free cost" spells simply BY CASTING SPELLS.  Mages don't need to walk up and "whack away" at stuff in order to proc their mana cost rebate like we do.  Holy Paladins get their mana cost rebate to proc on critical hits using Flash Heal, Holy Light or Holy Shock ... and they get another talent that gives them a guaranteed critical on any of those once every couple minutes.  Priests can have Spirit Tap proc after kills, doubling their Spirit and increasing their mana recovery while casting by +50%.  Warlocks can Lifetap for mana as well as Drain Life and Drain Mana (and Siphon Life and Dark Pact if Affliction spec).  And Mages get Mage Armor, which gives them +50% mana recovery while casting full time.

We get +15% mana recovery while casting after spending 13 talent points in Restoration ... and to proc Omen of Clarity, we not only need to be in melee range but also actively attacking with our melee weapon.

Advantage: everyone but Druids and non-Holy spec Paladins and (arguably) Priests (who need to score the killing blow to proc Spirit Tap) when it comes to mana recovery rates

Oh and in a raid setting, who is the Druid supposed to use Innervate on?  Conventional wisdom essentially dictates "anyone but the Druid gets Innervate first" even though it's a skill meant to help Druids overcome their mana recovery issues.  Instead, we're expected to DRINK (like there's no tomorrow).

And that's not even including the Bass Ackwards disorganization of the Balance tree that is just a mess when it comes to any kind of "clean" progression through it towards Moonkin, especially considering that you're going to want to spend (at least) 13 talent points in Restoration just to get 3/3 Reflection.  Ultimately, if you plan on playing a "dedicated" Moonkin, you wind up with something like a 38/0/13 build that looks like this with Omen of Clarity in it ... and there's remarkably little wiggle room to do anything else, short of dumping Reflection entirely or abandoning Improved Starfire.

To me, it looks an awful lot as if Gimped By Design was the actual intent of what Blizzard was doing with Moonkins and the Balance tree from the beginning.

All of that said, I'm going Moonkin with my Druid on Darrowshire.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
8 hours ago, Roxanne Flowers said:

Consider this other datapoint on the difference between Druid mana management and Mage/Paladin/Priest/Warlock.

Our "free" spell casting talent, Omen of Clarity, requires you to MELEE HIT stuff in order to proc, and last I checked it's on a 2 PPM rate, although once procced it does have a 10 minute duration (so it can be "carried" from fight to fight).  What adds insult to injury though is that it's locked behind Natural Weapons, a 5 point talent for increasing weapon damage.  So we spend 6 talents to earn a "free spell cost" proc from doing melee.

By contrast, Mages get their clearcasting proc for "free cost" spells simply BY CASTING SPELLS.  Mages don't need to walk up and "whack away" at stuff in order to proc their mana cost rebate like we do.  Holy Paladins get their mana cost rebate to proc on critical hits using Flash Heal, Holy Light or Holy Shock ... and they get another talent that gives them a guaranteed critical on any of those once every couple minutes.  Priests can have Spirit Tap proc after kills, doubling their Spirit and increasing their mana recovery while casting by +50%.  Warlocks can Lifetap for mana as well as Drain Life and Drain Mana (and Siphon Life and Dark Pact if Affliction spec).  And Mages get Mage Armor, which gives them +50% mana recovery while casting full time.

We get +15% mana recovery while casting after spending 13 talent points in Restoration ... and to proc Omen of Clarity, we not only need to be in melee range but also actively attacking with our melee weapon.

Advantage: everyone but Druids and non-Holy spec Paladins and (arguably) Priests (who need to score the killing blow to proc Spirit Tap) when it comes to mana recovery rates

Oh and in a raid setting, who is the Druid supposed to use Innervate on?  Conventional wisdom essentially dictates "anyone but the Druid gets Innervate first" even though it's a skill meant to help Druids overcome their mana recovery issues.  Instead, we're expected to DRINK (like there's no tomorrow).

And that's not even including the Bass Ackwards disorganization of the Balance tree that is just a mess when it comes to any kind of "clean" progression through it towards Moonkin, especially considering that you're going to want to spend (at least) 13 talent points in Restoration just to get 3/3 Reflection.  Ultimately, if you plan on playing a "dedicated" Moonkin, you wind up with something like a 38/0/13 build that looks like this with Omen of Clarity in it ... and there's remarkably little wiggle room to do anything else, short of dumping Reflection entirely or abandoning Improved Starfire.

To me, it looks an awful lot as if Gimped By Design was the actual intent of what Blizzard was doing with Moonkins and the Balance tree from the beginning.

All of that said, I'm going Moonkin with my Druid on Darrowshire.

True, although from a historical point of view, 1.12 talents are a lot better than anything before the major druid revamps.

I played a druid when Innervate was the 31 talent in restoration. Innervate is so powerful and was the defining talent of the healing tree. In 1.12, any druid has this powerful tool. At that time, Balance had Hurricane as 31 balance talent (and it had no range and was just cast around you) and we not even had Barkskin to avoid interrupting. Moonkin form was a huge upgrade and gain.

It's a pity that most people do not see that today. Do they even know the history of vanilla? I doubt it. They act like moonkin form is shit and players who choose this special way to play (and raid) are garbage. It's a shame. Of course, it's nice that some people like Roxanne still play the spec and enjoy it, I guess some hope is left. But I have read very dumb argumentations on Darrowshire horde about moonkin druids which top anything that I have read back in the days. 2006, the game was just so much more social and less about numbers and realmplayers... :-(

 

And now, for the health of my soul. Lets do some time travel: Innervate - Trained ability in 1.11

Quote

Hope this helps the "end-raid-druids-must-have-innervate"-dilemma. \o/ I was sooooo fed up with all the whining on me to get innervate just because the lazy ass priests wanted another mana battery. :D

Quote

wow this sounds great, imagine a innervating moonkin

Quote

I think I just had a druidgasm!

Quote

Innervate opens up end game content for non-resto druids. PERIOD! (and.. end game non resto druids likes to raid sometimes - last thing we need is restos yelling at us) Moonshine in Moonglade is on me! This is a freakin big buff. Rejoice! :D

moonkin positivity movement completed xD

 

Edit: one word about "Gimped By Design"... yeah the devs called it hybrid tax and today druids lost everything except their spec skills, but in return moonkin dps is huge and tops even mages and warlocks, depending on the encounter. My argument is that 1.12 is a lot better than anything before (during classic) and one could argue that moonkin now lost it's soul and is just another mindless dps spec but with purple beams instead blue, red or black ones :(

That's why I often flame people... they don't get that moonkins are not a dps spec like mage or warlock but a hybrid class that deals damage but can also heal in healing gear quite well and has other support skills that can be very useful for a raid.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
27 minutes ago, Keftenk said:

Moonkin DPS will not top Fire Mage nor Warlock. Believe me. It can compete though.

Quote

today druids lost everything except their spec skills, but in return moonkin dps is huge and tops even mages and warlocks, depending on the encounter.

I meant retail live realms with "today" .

in vanilla, fire mage will dominate naxx40 dps if ignite is utilized :p

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Mahtan said:

I meant retail live realms with "today" .

in vanilla, fire mage will dominate naxx40 dps if ignite is utilized :p

Blizzard has fallen so far out of touch for what made WoW so great in the first place it just sickens me. With each expansion they kept ignoring parts of the game until they were left with hollow tunnel of a game. They did a lot right with legion but there is only so much you can do with a husk.

The hybrid tax was furiously defended by Furor and Tygole and until Activision took over it stayed. To be honest the hybrid tax was necessary in how WoW was designed as it took a lot of inspiration and lessons from Everquest. The thing that wasn't necessary was the lack of itemization for all specs and the debuff limit. The only reason mentioned back then that debuff limits were implemented was because the UI couldn't handle more than 8. They fixed most of those issues in TBC. TBC had a glaring flaw however, it wanted to be an e-sport. >.< spellstealable Avenging Wrath and poppable bubble anyone?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
18 hours ago, Roxanne Flowers said:

To me, it looks an awful lot as if Gimped By Design was the actual intent of what Blizzard was doing with Moonkins and the Balance tree from the beginning.

Mookin is not competitive coz Blizzard didn't want to encourage players to play anything but restoration, especially in PvE. Maybe just some offtanking occasionally...

EDIT:

Oh and btw, +3% crit was meant to be appealing for other casters, you could put a moonkin in raid just to buff a party with it. Blizzard designed vanilla that way, trading damage for utility to buff other's damage.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On ‎18‎/‎08‎/‎2017 at 3:16 PM, Roxanne Flowers said:

.

To me, it looks an awful lot as if Gimped By Design was the actual intent of what Blizzard was doing with Moonkins and the Balance tree from the beginning.

All of that said, I'm going Moonkin with my Druid on Darrowshire.

Yep, gimped by design. That's how hybrids were designed. You want to play a hybrid with lots of playstyle options, you don't get to be the best in any one role. I like that personally. Much better than the current design philosophy of making every class identical except in name.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 hours ago, arbet said:

Yep, gimped by design. That's how hybrids were designed. You want to play a hybrid with lots of playstyle options, you don't get to be the best in any one role. I like that personally. Much better than the current design philosophy of making every class identical except in name.

this

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 8/17/2017 at 10:08 PM, arbet said:

I mean more viable in raids. They were VERY strong in Cataclysm, I was regularly top dps in heroic 25 mans in the Deathwing raid. Especially in crowded fights, you could put MF&IS on every mob and do insane numbers. Although I could still beat Mages in pure damage output against single target. I don't know how they are in the current game as I quit when Cataclysm ended, but when I left the game they were very strong.

 

In vanilla I am aware they are supposedly not viable. I really enjoy playing it though. You are quite right there is more thought involved with which spells you use. I only wish IS was in vanilla.

what is IS ?
I think in vanilla, I don't see what it means that druids would be "not viable". In the biggest raids? If that's really the case (doubt it, they always do bring smtg to the group, you just cant graph them to top a particular ranking category such as DPS or healing because druids should not or rarely just do one thing), then Druids are great in vanilla outside of these raids so.. it's not like wow end game is all about raids. I like to do instances sometimes, like once a week or something, but thats not where I get the most enjoyment in the game. Druid is very good at the wild pve/pvp mixed game. I enjoy it because of the depth of the spell use and stuff. In cataclysm a lot of this was lost to me, so I played it very little. I want a interesting character more important than a strong character.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I enjoy it too, but it's simply a fact that Balance Druid does not output damage at the same level as other casters.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

yet again, Moonkin is not supposed to be competitive with damage, yet the 3% crit chance with spells can be good for other classes. For example, as someone stated above, paladins gain mana on spellcrit, that means more than 3% endurance for them. Let's not forget about having an extra combat ress...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 hours ago, WobLight said:

paladins gain mana on spellcrit

Not to be nitpicky (although I'm sure I'm managing to be anyway), but the Holy talent for Paladins gives them a chance (100% at 5/5) to "rebate" the mana cost of some spells when they crit with those spells, yielding a "free mana cost" for casting that one specific spell ... much like how Omen of Clarity (for us) or Clearcasting (for Mages) will allow us/them to use skills at "no cost" rather than making the spells have a "negative" mana cost (spend 100, get 200 back) where you end up with more than you started with before casting (because it's more like spend 100, get 100 back, for net zero cost).

The wrinkle to all of this is that whenever these talents (Omen of Clarity, Arcane Concentration, Illumination) come into play, because mana winds up not being expended to cast spells the 5 Second Rule can more easily come into play, where if you haven't SPENT mana in the last 5 seconds, you recover mana at "full rate" from Spirit.  This means that using one of these rebate procs to "cast for free" winds up having a net effect of making it more likely that you'll wind up "gaining mana" from Spirit recovery (depending on your casting times and rotations, of course) at a higher rate /faster than if the talent proc had not occurred, simply because you were able to cast without "costing" mana to do so.  Needless to say, the longer the casting times of the spells involved the more likely this outcome of "extra" mana from Spirit recovery due to 5 Second Rule yields, since extremely fast spell rotations (Wrath spam, for example) tend to not be 5 Second Rule friendly.

So WobLight isn't wrong ... exactly ... but what's going on under the hood is a little bit more complicated, with a few extra permutations and moving parts, than is implied by "paladins gain mana on spellcrit" which isn't exactly the whole story.  It's good enough for a shorthand understanding of what's going on, but it's incomplete.  The net effect though is that for the same amount of mana spent, you can cast more spells, so depending on how you look at it ("a certain point of view" Sir Alec Guiness? really?) the yield behaves kind of like gaining mana on spellcrit relative to the baseline expectation of spells always costing mana to cast.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

My bad, I though paladins had some mean to reduce the mana cost of healing spell, making it negative. Looks like they don't though.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

On the subject of Moonkin mana troubles, someone posted an inquiry about Fist of Stone over in the General Discussion forum, which since it has a proc for mana on it seems like it would be something useful for Moonkins starting at Level 48, particularly if they are specced for Omen of Clarity procs as well (and thus intending to melee in addition to spellcasting), before moving up to higher end weapons.  Likewise, I have to wonder about the interactions of using a Hand of Edward the Odd with an Omen of Clarity spec Moonkin for being able to produce Instant cast Starfire (with 15% chance to stun?) while in melee as an advantageous cross-pollination.  The downside to any of these weapons would be, of course, a lack of Spell Hit, Spell Crit and/or Spell Damage/Healing.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Rule of thumb: If you're running out of mana either something happened during the fight, you aren't using correct consumables, or you need to find better players to play with. This is 2017. Nearly every fight in vanilla isn't long opposed to what they were like in the real days of vanilla. These mana issues are nothing but a myth otherwise.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'll just say the druid is absolutely not gimped at all outside of raids, beast in the wild^^ I rly love how they designed it (in vanilla), but then most classes seem v interesting

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now

×