blisslfutz

Why is balance druid so worse?

103 posts in this topic

Anyone has an idea of the ratio:

Hit / crit / spell / spell pen / intel / mp5 / spirit for Moonkin?

1 hit = 1 crit = 10 spell ? 

With talent 15% regen, I heard: 13.6 spirit =1 mp5

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You can check around in this forum for research like that. At one point we tried determining values for stat points like that. However, it was overall inconclusive as it changes wildly depending on duration of fight. Also, it's completely different for Wrath vs Starfire.

Hit > Spelldmg > Crit > Int > M5 > Spi is the optimal stat progression for Starfire.
No more than 11% hit, but if anything is alive after 70 seconds then you'll want more hit.

To quell any suspicions around exactly how much SP:Crit. You don't have to worry about any of that until Naxxramas comes out where you'll be wanting to use Brimstone Staff, Gem of Trapped Innocents, and Leggings of Polarity.

And Spell Pen. is useless.

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2 hours ago, Keftenk said:

You can check around in this forum for research like that. At one point we tried determining values for stat points like that. However, it was overall inconclusive as it changes wildly depending on duration of fight. Also, it's completely different for Wrath vs Starfire.

Hit > Spelldmg > Crit > Int > M5 > Spi is the optimal stat progression for Starfire.
No more than 11% hit, but if anything is alive after 70 seconds then you'll want more hit.

To quell any suspicions around exactly how much SP:Crit. You don't have to worry about any of that until Naxxramas comes out where you'll be wanting to use Brimstone Staff, Gem of Trapped Innocents, and Leggings of Polarity.

And Spell Pen. is useless.

Ty for answer.

Can you be more specific?

If you need to choose between 15 SP or 1 crit, or 30 intel against 5 SP ? 

I know the more SP, the more crit is good, but can you find that approximately?

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2 hours ago, Keftenk said:

You can check around in this forum for research like that. At one point we tried determining values for stat points like that. However, it was overall inconclusive as it changes wildly depending on duration of fight. Also, it's completely different for Wrath vs Starfire.

Hit > Spelldmg > Crit > Int > M5 > Spi is the optimal stat progression for Starfire.
No more than 11% hit, but if anything is alive after 70 seconds then you'll want more hit.

To quell any suspicions around exactly how much SP:Crit. You don't have to worry about any of that until Naxxramas comes out where you'll be wanting to use Brimstone Staff, Gem of Trapped Innocents, and Leggings of Polarity.

And Spell Pen. is useless.

Ty for answer.

Can you be more specific?

If you need to choose between 15 SP or 1 crit, or 30 intel against 5 SP ? 

I know the more SP, the more crit is good, but can you find that approximately?

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3 minutes ago, Rafale said:

Ty for answer.

Can you be more specific?

If you need to choose between 15 SP or 1 crit, or 30 intel against 5 SP ? 

I know the more SP, the more crit is good, but can you find that approximately?

it 100% depends on if u need the mana or not.

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You shouldn't need mana, period. The only "endurance" fights right now is Nefarion and C'Thun. Naxxramas may be a different issue, but your gear should be scaling. As I mentioned prior. If you're having mana issues then either something happened during the fight, you aren't correctly gear/enchanted, you aren't using the correct consumables, or your raid group is poor.

Anyways, for Starfire SP > Crit. It's hard to weight the stat. I'd suggest looking back at the thread where we did try and weight the stat. There is a point where SP and Crit needs to balance out to receive the optimal amount of DPS return, however just remember that Starfire receives 100% of your SP.

Maybe this will help you out better. Choker of the Firelord is 34sp and it will produce a higher DPS return than Pristine Enchanted South Seas Kelp which is +2% to Starfire.

Naxxramas you should be seeing a little over 40% crit on Starfire with over +900sp.

Edited by Keftenk

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I will say that Naxxramas is a toss up though. A lot of the fights are longer by design, but your DPS upkeep also isn't 100% with the exception of Patchwerk. I never really got to test against Naxxramas because they gated it on the PTR HAHA... The research after that is speculative and I've mentioned that the research for AQ is speculative as well, but more than half of AQ was tested with various gear combinations.

The only thing left out was Wrath, which I came to the conclusion would require you to be geared completely differently.

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Is wrath a solution? Nature dmg need thunderfury or mass resist no?

What about the 0,5 sec lost after the crit because of the 1.5 sec gcd? You starfire after a wrath crit?

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Is Wrath a solution? It's possible, but I have very little data on it. Before Nostalrius kicked the bucket I had just begun working on Wrath. When I was apart of the QA team, AQ and Naxx weren't gated, so when I had spare time I developed the rest of Moonkin vs spawned dummies and gear which wasn't obtainable on live. Here's is what I did find out about Wrath.

Wrath is a mana hog, but it's amazing on trash. Nearly every monster in vanilla has a 75NR, which is lower than all the other resistances. Thunderfury obviously cuts this which helps. The problem is there is no natural dmg% increase to Nature outside of Darkmoon Faire, Stormstrike (only 2 charges), and Nightfall. So it comes up tremendously short :(

You could try doing a Wrath > Starfire rotation, but honestly you're going to hurt yourself more than help. Either Wrath or Starfire won't receive the full benefits of your gear because they are two very different spells and/or it would probably be more beneficial to just spam Wrath until OOM versus trying to alternate.

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30 minutes ago, Keftenk said:

Nearly every monster in vanilla has a 75NR, which is lower than all the other resistances.

Purely for reference purposes, what are the typical resistances for the other damage types (understanding that Holy is of course default set to zero)?

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Sorry, I meant 70NR.
All other elements are 145. There are exceptions to these resistance rules such as Ragnaros or other monsters that have immunities.

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2 hours ago, Rafale said:

What about the 0,5 sec lost after the crit because of the 1.5 sec gcd? You starfire after a wrath crit?

It should be possible to make a macro for it.

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4 hours ago, WobLight said:

It should be possible to make a macro for it.

macro that checks on every cast that do you have the 0,5sec NG proc and determines then does it cast SF or wrath?
-
How does the hybrid casting style work with wrath travel time? Unlike SF which hits and does dmg instantly after the cast, there seems to be delay between ending wrath cast and it doing the dmg aka having possible NG proc. This could be factor especially if you're standing on the max 36y away. Could this cause lost procs if you do wrath/SF rotation since the buff is consumed at the end of the cast, instead of at the start of it. Assuming I recall correctly how it works, been a while since I played with the talent.

As in you cast wrath -> start second wrath -> first one hits and procs NG during the casting 2nd wrath -> after finishing 2nd wrath you start casting SF -> 2nd one hit and re-procs NG while you're casting SF?
 

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Does it even need to be discussed?

I think it's crazy to think anyone would be willing to lose out on Curse of Shadows damage just for 2-3 Wraths per Starfire. I mean. Essentially 2 Wraths will equal one cast of Starfire. Not to mention you have to gear Hit% heavy to cut down the chances of resists on your Wraths, which is then causing Starfire to due less damage compared to a DPS setup. Maybe there is a good hybrid set out there that bridges that gap between Wrath and Starfire, but you're still doing 10% less damage per 2-3 Wrath cast.

I'm not saying Wrath isn't possible, but I honestly think it's either pure Wrath or pure Starfire. Not a hybrid.

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Also, do note that the effective cast-time of Wrath cannot drop below 1.5 seconds due to the global cool down being 1.5 seconds in vanilla.

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What is the best group configuration with a moonkin ? 1 pala,3 mages?

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23 hours ago, Rafale said:

Anyone has an idea of the ratio:

Hit / crit / spell / spell pen / intel / mp5 / spirit for Moonkin?

1 hit = 1 crit = 10 spell ? 

With talent 15% regen, I heard: 13.6 spirit =1 mp5

13.3

6.6 with 30% regen.

1 spirit at 30% regen is equal to 1.8 mana per minute

1 int is 15 mana permanently.

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11 hours ago, Schadenfreude said:

wrath travel time

Crit procs are on cast end, not on spell landing.

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5 hours ago, Rafale said:

What is the best group configuration with a moonkin ? 1 pala,3 mages?

Why ever Paladin?

Best group configuration is most likely 4 Fire Mages + Moonkin. Before Fire Mage, it's 4 Warlocks + Moonkin.

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Reason for (presumably Holy) Paladin is for Illumination procs on crits giving Paladins mana cost rebate on healing and/or Holy Shock use.

What it really comes down to is finding group mates who have talents that give them "more" from crits than just the crits themselves.  More crits, more dakka, less downtime.

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Still doesn't make sense. It's a wild waste of the spell crit aura. What Paladin goes OOM in 2017? What class goes OOM in 2017?

Moonkin for Mage group during trash pulls; Moonkin in Warlock (Fire Mage) group for single target kills.

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On 24.8.2017 at 11:07 AM, Rafale said:

Anyone has an idea of the ratio:

Hit / crit / spell / spell pen / intel / mp5 / spirit for Moonkin?

1 hit = 1 crit = 10 spell ? 

With talent 15% regen, I heard: 13.6 spirit =1 mp5

If you do not hit, you waste the full many of the spells, not only dps. Only Hits can crit.

So basically stacking hit is most important for many efficiency and to make use of the crit talent (which is totally overrated). The crit talent proc is only worth 0,167 times a starfire (0,5/3) so each starfire crit will give you only 16,7% of a starfire as bonus damage. This means you would need to make 6 crits with starfire and and hit 6 times with the fast cast starfire in order to make up for one spell you did miss due to missing hit on gear.

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1 hour ago, Ram said:

If you do not hit, you waste the full many of the spells, not only dps. Only Hits can crit.

So basically stacking hit is most important for many efficiency and to make use of the crit talent (which is totally overrated). The crit talent proc is only worth 0,167 times a starfire (0,5/3) so each starfire crit will give you only 16,7% of a starfire as bonus damage. This means you would need to make 6 crits with starfire and and hit 6 times with the fast cast starfire in order to make up for one spell you did miss due to missing hit on gear.

That's interesting. How much hit do you need to be sure you take advantage of the crit talent?

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Just for the sake of saving mana I would go full hit on every slot where the crit / spell damage item available is not SIGNIFICANTLY better. I just did some tests on Kronos PTR in full Naxx BIS gear and 480 dps was the best I could do before going oom.

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