blisslfutz

Why is balance druid so worse?

103 posts in this topic

Hi folks,

i just made some calculations about dps and mana efficience of a balance druid and compared it to a mage. And I dont see, why everybode is telling, that a balance druide is worse than a mage. When i calculated the dps i didnt considered crit chance. The base crit chance of a mage and a druid should be the same. If you assume, that both chars cant crit and dont have mana regen i calculated following values when both chars have 6000 mana, and 300 Spellpower. (Druid skilled -9% mana costs and +10% dmg bonus, mage skilled +6% dmg bonus and -15% mana costs)

Spell Wrath (Spell dmg bonus is 2/3,5)
Rank BaseDmg Mana Dmg DPS DPM Time till oom
4       69              64      265  176   4,1    141 sec
8       250            164    464  309   2,8    55 sec

Spell Starfire (spell damage scales 1:1)
Rank BaseDmg Mana Dmg DPS DPM Time till oom
1       100            86     440   147   5      208 sec
6       480           287    840   286   3       63 sec

Spell Frostbolt (Spell dmg bonus is 3/3,5)
Rank BaseDmg Mana Dmg DPS DPM Time till oom
4        79            55      356   142   6,4     270 sec
10      445          221    744   297   3,4     67 sec

As you can see in the table, just with the base manapool booth chars can cast nearly the same time with higher rank spells. The mage can cast for 67 seconds, while the druid can chose to make more damage with wrath or to cast nearly the same time but do less damage with starfire.

With more spell power the damage difference between wrath and frostbolt will increase. With 700 spellpower wrath will deal 600 dps and frostbolt (rank 10) will deal 550 dps.

Both chars can increase their spell crit damage by 100%. With talents the mage gets a higher crit change Winters chill adds 10%, moonkin aura adds only 3%.

So there is a difference of 7% crit chance due to the talents but the druid can make more base damage. Increasing depending on the gear (4% more with 300 spell power, 9% more with 700). With 7% less crit he should deal 3,5% less damage. (assuming, that the mage has 7% and the druid none).

With a higher crit chance the druid can cast faster which will increase his damage output and decrease his mana pool. Each point of crit chance increase his damage by about 3% when he is using wrath and by about 1,5% when he is using starfire. While each point decrease the time he can cast by 0,5% when using wrath and by about 0,25% when using starfire.

So a druid while benefit more of a higher crit chance than a mage.

Both chars can skill 15% base mana reg, so i neglect mana reggen during fights here.

A mage can use Evocation and a druid can use Innervate. Evocation will restore more mana when both chars have the same gear. Innervate increase it by 400% over 20seconds. Which will cause a total bonus of 8000 ?? or 1333 ??/m. A mage will increase it by 1500 over 8 seconds. Which will provide 12000?? or 1500??/min.

He can also use a mana gem, which will give him 1000-1200 mana.

The only big difference i can see is, that a mage can use his gem and his evocation gives him a little bit more mana. But a balance druid can cause more damage.

And a druid is more versatile.

Am i missing something or why is a balance druid so worse (or is seen as bad dps)

 

 

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8 minutes ago, Keftenk said:

Do some searches in this forum.

I have done, only one thread I found was really interesting. It was the thread about the damage calculation.

https://forum.elysium-project.org/topic/23975-boomkin-dps-calculations/

where you also contributed.

But there I didnt found the reason, why a balance druid is so worse, that nobody wants to have them in their raid. When he scales a little bit better with crit and spellpower then a mage it should be possible to gear him a little bit different then a mage, to get a more manareg.

So Im curios why everybody hates moonkins

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You can't even use innervation and insect swarm in moonkin. 

That thing is depressing.

Wrath doesn't get anything from curse of elements,also.

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So problems of moonkins. With talents you don't get spell hit so you have to work extra hard and choose hit gear over other solid upgrades. You also have innervate which ok you could use on yourself but mages and locks have built in mana recouping features which again you don't have. With short enough fights where mana is less of an issue than pure damage output moonkins can be great. Longer fights though it's not good because of those reasons.

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Moonkin doesn't scale better than Fire Mage, mainly due to Scorch.

But yes, talents is the largest downfall to Moonkin more than anything. When you compare Moonkin to Fire Mage, not only do they have some awesome trinket and Tier set bonuses, but they have hit talents that allow them to prioritize more DPS stats on their gear. Where as a Moonkin you have to risk it to be competitive because gear is the only place you can receive hit from.

Warlock is very similar as well, not to mention all of the insane shadow% increases they get from themselves as well as Shadow Priest's.

Admittingly most of Moonkins negative stigma comes from old vanilla. I tried to change that and then Nost crapped out and I ended up deciding to focus on real life. rip the dream. Elysium mechanics slowly became a joke too when I tried to move over. Working on the project probably didn't do me any good to come to that conclusion.

I still believe someone can prove my original theories on Moonkin, but it requires a high-notched guild. The faster the kills, the better your DPS will be, the better your Crit Aura becomes, and the less need to worry about mana issues. Which right there is why people don't even want to consider Moonkin because they aren't in a top tier guild.

To note on Insect Swarm since it was brought up. Even if Moonkin could cast it, you wouldn't waste a debuff slot on it. Moonfire is superior.

To note on Wrath. Even though it doesn't receive the damage modifier from a curse like all the other spell schools, Nature Resistance on monsters in vanilla is naturally capped lower except on a select few. Thunderfury lowers that cap even greater. Wrath spam is a very real thing. It won't out damage Fire or Shadow though.

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No mentions about Nature's Grace causing Wrath to fall under GCD? What about a macro to use Starfire when Nature's Grace is up?

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I tried a Wrath/Starfire rotation. Wrath is great on trash.
Starfire is great on bosses. Wrath is far more mana consuming too than Starfire.

With that said there might be room to build a Wrath damage rotation. I quit playing during AQ40 PTR.
Wrath will require a completely different gear setup than Starfire DPS though.

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From where I sit at my keyboard, it seems that Balance Druids in general (and Moonkins in particular) are "lacking" in some of the synergies available to other damage dealing spellcasters.  The big ones are reduced mana regeneration while casting relative to the alternatives (Mage in particular), which seriously affects the longevity of their continuous spellcasting in endurance terms.  In a lot of ways, Balance Druids are kinda sorta "gimped Arcane Mages" who blend schools with Nature (typically resisted less as cited above) instead of Fire (extra DoT) or Frost (slow/root).

The Balance talents also defy easy analysis since Nature's Grace is not something that is happening consistently (critical hit dependency) and makes the spreadsheet analysis go all wonky.  Because of this, the ... variance ... in performance for a Balance Druid is much wider, in the granular short term sense, than that of a Mage or Warlock (or even a Priest).  Nature's Grace raises your DPS, by shortening casting times, while also increasing your mana burn rate (your MPS), because you're casting spells faster than you otherwise would have.

All of which makes me wonder, much like Keftenk, if there is some potential combination of factors that would make Balance Druids "efficient enough" to at least be ON PAR with the alternatives, understanding going in that being On Par wasn't the Design Intent™ since Druids are a "hybrid" class that can do more than one thing (even though raiding parties optimize for each character doing ONLY one thing to the maximum extent possible).  As oddball as it sounds, I keep wondering if we've been "doing Balance wrong" all these years by trying to spec our Balance Druids for maximum Intelligence (and thus crit chance and mana pool) rather than angling for maximum Spirit and gearing up with items that increase mana regeneration while spellcasting.  Unfortunately, the only place I was able to find increased mana regeneration while casting for Druids was the Stormrage Set (3 piece bonus), so that's probably a No Go option there.  Still, it would be interesting to see a Balance Druid specced for Spirit rather than Intelligence.  Unfortunately, that would almost certainly fall into the Try Hard™ category, rather than into a Viable Strategy one.

In short, the deck is somewhat stacked against Balance Druids (and Moonkins) in ways that make it more difficult than necessary to play to their strengths due to a lack of synergies both internal and external, which includes gear itermization.

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You don't really want to stack INT nor Crit for Starfire.
Necessary and needed for sure, but SP is much more relevant to higher DPS.

If you manage to OOM, which is difficult in a raid setup that is competent, you use Starfire R1 for mana efficiency. It's actually surprisingly good. Innervate always to your Shadow Priest to increase overall raid DPS. I even Innervated our Warlock's from time to time so they didn't eat a GCD on Life Tap HAHA...

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One other thing to note is Frostbolt is binary so it never gets partial resisted whereas I believe warth and starfire can be partial resisted.  Also Arcane Power / PoM are really amazing for boss fights especially if you use MQG at the same time as AP.  For BWL/MC mage also have really great AOE and in BWL they have 3/5 of the schools of mage that the dragonoids can be vulnerable to and druid has 2/5.  For AQ and Naxx mage just becomes so much better when they spec fire since ignite is so damage efficient and scales so well.

Papablaze is probably the only high end raider I know that was moonkin and raided with Coalition. 

http://realmplayers.com/CharacterViewer.aspx?realm=Ana&player=Papablaze

 

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Balance druids have very few talents that boost their damage. Leaving out talents that every class has (reduced cast time on nukes and 100% crit damage bonus), leaves you with just Nature's Grace and Moonfury. This pales in comparison with ignite, arcane power, mind-quickening gem (of which there is no equivalent for druids), winter's chill, nightfall, shadow vulnerability, etc etc.

Also, there is no warlock curse for nature damage, which limits your nukes to starfire unless you want to deal with higher resists vs lvl 63 mobs. Finally, there is no synergy with any other classes. Mages can stack ignite or make use of winter's chill, and warlocks all benefit from shadow vulnerability and massively from a shadow priest.

"Mana efficiency" is a useless characteristic in PvE. No other class has to worry about it for long fights except for rare extreme situations.

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Other than the winter's chill bot, other frost mages get arcane instability further increasing crit and damage by 3%.

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if you are out of mana, you can offtank or dps for a while and that will regen your mana, so you can even do that midfight and you get all this extra mana regen time while you still deal some damage or bring a little utility with demoralizing roar? the cat can always dps with the bleed skills, and the bear can always demoralize or bash or taunt or.. swipe.. lol. Maybe throw a tranquility before shifting.. lol idk but I think, druid is always like that, if you are focusing completely only on one aspect it will hurt his efficiency. For example if you are tanking, if there are no openings midfight for you to go out of tanking and cast some spells, that's too bad right, loss of potential with your maxed mana pool and what you could have done given a few seconds.

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>tfw you use Demoralizing Shout or Bleed and your raid flips shit for removing higher priority debuffs.

Sounds like a good plan.

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13 hours ago, ProMeTheus112 said:

if you are out of mana, you can offtank or dps for a while and that will regen your mana, so you can even do that midfight and you get all this extra mana regen time while you still deal some damage or bring a little utility with demoralizing roar? the cat can always dps with the bleed skills, and the bear can always demoralize or bash or taunt or.. swipe.. lol. Maybe throw a tranquility before shifting.. lol idk but I think, druid is always like that, if you are focusing completely only on one aspect it will hurt his efficiency. For example if you are tanking, if there are no openings midfight for you to go out of tanking and cast some spells, that's too bad right, loss of potential with your maxed mana pool and what you could have done given a few seconds.

No. Big no.

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Have you considered playing moonkin on retail? It's a top dps spec and has new fancy animations!

The best part: Nobody will explain you that a mage is master-race dps and a moonkin is filthy trash dps.

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No doubt Moon n is a nice spec to play now with the dots spam , lunar and solar power is nice however moonkin in vanilla is probably worst DPS RAID spec due to no Mana regen , only if heart of the world int talent got transferred to balance then it would be much better.In 5/10 mans moonkin isn't bad with consumables and also in PvP it can be a beast.

In pvp it's if u want to get 3% spell crit with moonkin form or a instant nature spell?But their is nothing like staying in moonkin form casting wraith spell with 65% armor reduction and warriors can't do shit to u haha.

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There are very little fights in vanilla 2017 where mana is ever an issue.
I'd argue that Hunter is worse DPS than a correctly executed Moonkin.

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8 hours ago, Keftenk said:

There are very little fights in vanilla 2017 where mana is ever an issue.
I'd argue that Hunter is worse DPS than a correctly executed Moonkin.

the only reason you bring hunters to raids is tranq. so i dont get your point.

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9 hours ago, suhail1200 said:

No doubt Moon n is a nice spec to play now with the dots spam , lunar and solar power is nice however moonkin in vanilla is probably worst DPS RAID spec due to no Mana regen , only if heart of the world int talent got transferred to balance then it would be much better.In 5/10 mans moonkin isn't bad with consumables and also in PvP it can be a beast.

In pvp it's if u want to get 3% spell crit with moonkin form or a instant nature spell?But their is nothing like staying in moonkin form casting wraith spell with 65% armor reduction and warriors can't do shit to u haha.

There is only one dot to spam if you re in moonkin form, insect swarm is from resto tree. There is no lunar and solar power. You need to leave moonkin form to use innervation, too.

Now you know why nobody want to play moonkin.

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1 hour ago, flowqz said:

the only reason you bring hunters to raids is tranq. so i dont get your point.

Read up and you'll get the point. Maybe I should have quoted in my last post.

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On 8/13/2017 at 0:30 PM, Rafale said:

No. Big no.

why? big no teaches nothing

I don't play raids, but this works in 5man stuff. I know it, when you don't switch roles around, druid loses potential. It's harder to switch roles around, but if you do it right, you are stronger. That's druidic. But anyway, I rather stay out of instances most of the time. Maybe Moonkin is better out of instances. wootever!

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This game is over 12 years old. And this is an emulation. Everything until deep AQ40 and Naxx40 is very easy to do. 12 years ago, a hunter tanked Nefarian. 40 mages killed Ragnaros. A group of 5 people with high end equip killed Onyxia at 60. Common! Just play Moonkin, avoid idiots who think they are elite and smart and focus on improving gear and use your support skills to become a valueable member of the raid.

A good moonkin will be very valuabe for Chomaggus dispelling, provides 3% spellcrit for up to 4 other casters, you provide a battlerez and innervate when you use mana pots and dark runes in specific fights where the healing is needed (for example bosses that you progress at that moment).

Oh and Keftenk nails it to the point. Most fights in MC, BWL and ZG take 1-2 mins, so mana is not an issue 2017 at all.

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