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hotdwarfsixpack

The Case for 'Gummycraft' in Raiding on the New Release

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What makes Vanilla World of Warcraft one of the most popular choices on the private server scene nowadays? Depending on who you ask it can range from a number of answers from its strong emphasis on community building and rivalry to its diverse class system where every class has its own specific role instead of the bastardized homogenization that retail is.

 

One common motif that will always come up is the difficulty of Vanilla WoW. People remember or at least claim to remember wiping endlessly on raid bosses and even trash mobs in the 40 man content, yet that seems to be something that Vanilla WoW emulators fail to capture in any significant capacity.

 

The fact is, we are all veterans of vanilla wow to an extent. We know where Mankrik's wife is, if you go above the tank's threat level on the KTM addon you will pull aggro and wipe your guild on vael, and that you actually cannot see Ragnaros if you look through that portal behind Golemagg. We have access to so much in terms of addons, theorycraft, and 1.12 talents that raid content has by and large become trivialized. Molten Core and Blackwing Lair are easy (not going to comment on AQ until a server with actual scripting can release it). And that goes against what we remember, and why we came to want to play on an emulated Vanilla server.

 

February 28th, 2015--Nostalrius is first released. March 19th, 2015, less than 20 days later, Ragnaros is killed by the first guild. Within 2 weeks of server first kill, Ragnaros is killed by 2 other guilds. The endgame boss for the first segment of vanilla wow couldn't last for even a high schoolers winter vacation. AND it was on a server where you had to level at 1x rates with 2-4k other people competing for experience to even hit 60. I'm going to take a wild guess and say that most of the players in these guilds killing Ragnaros within 30 days did not have great gear when killing him--nor did they need it. What they did have was consumables, 1.12 talent trees, and a wealth of information available to them in the form of addons tracking knockback timers and strategies to get a free 84 fire resist.

 

Now I'm not here to make a case for implementing 1.4 talent trees (I don't wish the 31 point for fury warriors to revert back to the old +100% weapon damage after getting a KB on a mob) or somehow making the Warden anti-cheat autoban people with KTM/BigWigs enabled, but I am submitting to you a request to consider a 'Gummycraft' increase in difficulty.

 

Anyone who has been in the private server scene for any length of time remembers Scriptcraft. It was a server infamous for its raiding difficulty (and large unscripted pre-50 content, but you didn't come to Scriptcraft with the intent of leveling 1-60 at 1x rates. You came to raid and pvp). Scriptcraft had raid bosses in 2012 with scripting identical to what you were seeing on Nostalrius, with a few additions--increased damage and hp (this applied to trash mobs as well), and in some cases a Thrash. This increase was around 30-40% depending on who you asked and even applied to instances from BRD and beyond. This was enough of an increase to make even simple runs to the Emperor a difficult fight where you had to improvise constantly to deal with yolked enemies. Everyone played to a higher level, because you couldn't succeed playing with your dick in your hand autofollowing your ranged dps. You would get curbstomped.

 

Vaelastrasz was a legitimate guild ender on Scriptcraft, but on Nostalrius? There were maybe a handful of raid guilds that hadn't killed him compared to the tsunami of guilds clearing all content (some in under 2 hours for a full MC/BWL clear).

 

The gear regression is not enough to make these instances difficult. You need to give these instances and raids a boost, otherwise it'll be yet another easy faceroll.

 

We didn't choose to play Vanilla WoW for an easy experience where the only box you needed to check was "do I have a pulse?". We came for the difficulty. Anyone can hit 60, but not everyone should be able to clear all of the content until they earn it. Put the challenge back in Vanilla.

 

And before those Vanilla purists come out of the forest with their torches and pitchforks screaming "DONT CHANGE ANYTHING ABOUT VANILLA WOW BECAUSE IT WONT BE VANILLA WOW THEN". Consider this: we are on a 1.4 patch with 1.12 talents. We have access to 100% accurate timers with bigwigs. We have a quest tracker that makes questing identical to Skyrim. We know what's coming after we talk to Majordomo Executus on his fiery peninsula. This is not, and there will never be a perfect emulation. This enhancement will bring the advantages of the talent trees and addons down to a more reasonable level, and make Vanilla WoW hard(er).

 

TL;DR: Vanilla WoW raiding is too easy with the amount of knowledge/1.12 talents available to us. We need to make raiding great again, and increase their damage/hp/armor/resistance/etc to make the game a challenge.

Edited by hotdwarfsixpack

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You could argue that a "Hardcore PvE" server would be fitting for such improvements to up the difficulty. Considering there are a lot of players, especially für the new fresh server, that never played vanilla i highly doubt it is necessary.

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I would prefer if everything is the as close to the same thing as retail Vanilla. 

"And before those Vanilla purists come out of the forest with their torches and pitchforks screaming "DONT CHANGE ANYTHING ABOUT VANILLA WOW BECAUSE IT WONT BE VANILLA WOW THEN". Consider this: we are on a 1.4 patch with 1.12 talents. We have access to 100% accurate timers with bigwigs. We have a quest tracker that makes questing identical to Skyrim. We know what's coming after we talk to Majordomo Executus on his fiery peninsula. This is not, and there will never be a perfect emulation. This enhancement will bring the advantages of the talent trees and addons down to a more reasonable level, and make Vanilla WoW hard(er)."

 

By making other parts of the emulation more difficult, we can go back to a closer product that resembled the original WoW. We can't take 1.12 talents or addons away from the public, but we can change this.

 

You could argue that a "Hardcore PvE" server would be fitting for such improvements to up the difficulty. Considering there are a lot of players, especially für the new fresh server, that never played vanilla i highly doubt it is necessary.

 

Even if you didn't play WoW in 04-06, you'll still know way more about it than anyone else from that time period. You'll join a guild with veterans who will tell you the best strategies, the best addons. Your raid leader will have played guaranteed. That's why 90%+ of the guilds on Nost 1 were full clearing everything. Even if you were new, vanilla emulation is at a point where addons have trivialized already basic boss fights.

Edited by hotdwarfsixpack

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I mean, even in 04-06, save the last few bosses in AQ and Naxx, the rest of the raid content was relatively easy after a while and was breezed through by most competent guilds.

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While there is going to be players with more (hardcore) raiding experience from Vanilla than myself, I did have a strong guild that progressed a fair amount, with what I would consider respectable killtimings (not even close to top 10, but certainly top 200 had there been a place to track this stuff and the core of that guild is still pushing sub 100 on retail (idiots...) as we speak) I'd argue that there are two things affecting my playstyle a lot more than having addOns, access to (more) (theoretical) information or the influence of an imperfect emulation.

 

  • About 12 years of growing up (oh man, all those skipped classes back then...).
  • Having the hardware to play (vanilla) WoW at even 1000 FPS at times with a 165Hz screen instead of sometimes going as low as 3-5 FPS after a pull.
Edited by Athena

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The real problem debating this topic is we really don't know how hard AQ and Naxx will be when actually implemented. Back in vanilla yeah MC started hard and BWL started hard but most of the way through vanilla most every guild that raided could at least do BWL and of course they could thrash MC. Now could they in the times we do it? No. But like you said that is a product of optimization of gear, consumables, and talents.

 

But AQ, especially the end and Naxx were different leagues. I hope that it will be like that on Nost. In general it will be at least sorta. The problem is too an issue of population. We have easily 4 times the guilds that existed on a single realm back in the day. From my memory we had about 2-3 guilds that could do at least something in Naxx. Probably 8-10 that were in AQ and the rest were doing BWL. Those in MC were just getting started. If you take all those and multiply by 4 then it seems generally reasonable that this may be similar to how it will be in nost. But then the guilds in nost are asking a lot more than was asked of the average raider back in the day. No one used consumables back then - not like we do at least. Full flasking of the entire raid while progressing? Lol no way. Probably what has changed the most is a general competitiveness of the scene. It's not harder, we're just tryharder.

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It comes with the territory of private server vets clearing the same two raids over and over for years. Only 23 guilds in Vanilla cleared Naxx, and many many many never killed twin emps/Cthun, much less stepped foot in AQ and downed the first boss.

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To be honest the best way to make PVE content tuned is to make talents properly tuned.   Since 1.12 talent formulas are in place a number of things are just not right.  If a server can get proper patched talents each raid would be that much harder.  

 

As far as making 1.12 raids harder, you shouldn't.  Why? because these are starter raids and starter raids have always been easy.  Aq and Naxx is where things got to a new level and even than it was trash and broken mechanics that held teams back.

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I agree with you on this. I have made this point quite a few times for Elysium back in August 2016 (old thread, do not necro). This post I linked was me answering to Pottu and anostrich (now named "Yaga"), lead developer of Elysium. 

 

Lead Developer

bullet_black.pngbullet_black.pngbullet_black.pngbullet_black.png

69 posts

 

Posted 17 August 2016 - 12:58

Finding balance is a hard thing whoever would try to reach it.

I believe Blizzard did a huge job on it: they've got a lot of statistics to research as well as a huge experience in such kind of things.

Whatever is changed there are always someone displeased of it.

 

Our aim is not to best Blizzard but to give you guys the flavour and experince of time long gone by.

We are focused on reaching the match except for some useless things (like monthly fees   :P).

 

Their philosophy is fundamentally different to what raiders of vanilla private servers enjoy, that is a progression. Doesn't matter what kind of player you are or how experienced, they cater to give you a flavor of the delicious vanilla cake, not the actual ingredients. There was a PR announcement by Unstop (now "member" rank, was admin) in September this year about buffing content.  

 

Excerpt:

Watching guilds progress on the raids, it was clear that the gear and talents available on the patch 1.12.1 are a noticeable advantage over the original experience and it felt less challenging that we wanted our content to be.

Therefore, we decided that the next contents to be release will be buffed. However, we understand that not every player is a Vanilla veteran and some are actually discovering the game for the first time! To compromise with each side, we are not aiming at a hardcore difficulty, rather to a challenging and refreshing one with the intention to match the Blizzard difficulty with today’s experience and knowledge about the game.

 

 

The positive we can take is that they do listen to the community, by buffing content a little bit. Elysium however never had the intention of buffing content to bring back a retail-like progression experience. Their target audience is the casual/new player base who have never played vanilla to come experience the content, not the experienced vanilla enthusiasts who've been around many servers already. I'd say most of the new vanilla players are all veteran post-vanilla players, who know how to play already. They'll get the experience the rest of us will get, which is a faceroll experience. Not to the extent of Kronos, but not off by much as someone who has raided both for months. 

 

Do not forget, Nostalrius Molten Core pugs could clear it within 100mins without voice comm or raiding gear, just need some prebis pieces. The really good pugs could clear MC within 60 minutes and fully clear BWL too. MC may have been an "entry level" raid as people label it, but remember, emulation means trying to emulate the vanilla WoW - which is when almost everyone had to work hard/learn classes/strats/communicate on voice comm to clear MC. Boss timer addons definitely has a part to play in this, but in general, all trash and bosses in MC and BWL on Nost had low HP enough to ignore most time-based phase mechanics, like Ragnaros submerge, Firemaw/Golemagg tank swaps to reset debuffs, Vael's multiple tank swaps or ignore the core mechanics of the fight by nuking Lucifron/Gehennas first before their adds, AoE Sulfuron adds through their minuscule heals, ignore threat mechanics of Razorgore p2 as his hp is so little, bypass P2 Onyxia by melee blowing CDs and nuking her from below, I could go on about every single fight on Nost. It's just pathetic in terms of tuning, no healer or DPS comes close to going out of mana/resource. Yet we pretend private servers (even the current best) can come close to emulating what retail was like. 

 

Nost did have some stealth buffs on bosses to make them do more damage (like Broodlord, Chrom, Nef) which was great. Being a full BiS tank and dying on these fights due to a bad combo timing of blast wave/mortal strike is great, I personally enjoyed the danger and having to be quick with defensive CDs if not flasked (Titans). Even King Gordok in DM Tribute did insane damage on Nost, which was fun. But these examples of raid bosses are just too few, and their HPs too low, to be a real threat in a long fight. We spend more time running in the instance, than actually killing bosses, as they die so quickly without world buffs even. 

 

Asking for Scriptcraft like experience is never going to happen on Nos/Ely. Like I pointed out, this team has their own philosophy and target audience and the semi-hardcore/hardcore audience is not part of that, much like Blizzard nowadays ya? Anyways, just be patient and hope the next-gen vanilla servers will actually tune for the semi-hardcore/hardcore player base like the original vanilla team did. 

 

Example of why Molten Core was hard on retail:- (From one of my posts on the warrior forums, talking about Patch 1.6 warrior revamp)

 

Original prot tree was really bad. These were the other 2 31-talent point skills (Fury/Prot):

 

INV_Shield_05_sm.pngShield Discipline - 1/1 points
While active, increases the amount of damage absorbed by your shield by 50% and increases the damage done by your Shield Bash ability by 200%. Lasts 20 seconds.

 

Spell_Nature_BloodLust_sm.pngBloodthirst

Activates after dealing a killing blow. Your next melee weapon attack deals a 100% increased damage.

 

In patch 1.6: BWL was released. Alongside revamped Warrior talent tree:-

 

Warriors  (Source: http://wowwiki.wikia...iki/Patch_1.6.0)

  • Due to significant talent changes, Warriors will have all talent points refunded and can be respent.
  • Hamstring - Will now cause damage to targets immune to movement slowing effects. Movement slowing effect improved.
  • Improved Hamstring - Design changed. No longer improves the movement slowing effect. It is now a 3 point talent that gives a 5/10/15% chance to immobilize the target for 5 seconds.
  • Booming Voice - In addition to increasing duration, this talent will now increase the area of effect of Battle Shout and Demoralizing Shout by 10/20/30/40/50%.
  • Battle Shout - Tooltip updated to display area of effect (in yards).
  • Demoralizing Shout - Tooltip updated to display area of effect (in yards).
  • Improved Berserker Rage - No longer increases the duration of the effect. The talent will now generate 5/10 rage when Berserker Rage is used.
  • Improved Demoralizing Shout - Effectiveness increase from talent increased to 8/16/24/32/40%.
  • Piercing Howl - No longer has a prerequisite (Improved Demoralizing Shout).
  • Death Wish - Is now usable while under a Fear effect, which will also remove the Fear effect.
  • Bloodthirst - Design changed. Bloodthirst is now an instant melee attack that causes damage equal to 30% of the warrior's attack power. In addition, the next 5 successful melee attacks will restore health.
  • Concussion Blow - No longer requires purchase of the Improved Revenge talent.
  • Shield Discipline - Removed and replaced by the new talent Shield Slam.
  • New Talent: Shield Slam - Slam the target with your shield, causing damage and has a 50% chance to dispel 1 magic effect on the target. Also causes a moderate amount of threat. Requires the purchase of the Concussion Blow talent.
  • Heroic Strike/Sunder Armor/Revenge/Mocking Blow - Tooltips updated to indicate the additional threat caused by these abilities. There have been no changes to the amount of threat caused.

One of the most popular tank spec at the time was 31/5/15 talent spec. I didn't theorycraft back then, if it was the best or not, but it was recommended to me. You get most of your Arms stuff with a useful skill like Mortal Strike because it was legitimately better than everything else at that point. Considering Shield Slam was doing "moderate amount of threat" it was probably still not worth getting for this MT. 

 

This was posted to point out why the Main Tank of the World First Nefarian kill was using Mortal Strike in his rotation. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yJ1OUeG1poE

 

Molten Core (Patch 1.1 or whatever) was done in suboptimal talent specs for ALL classes. (Rogue revamp was Patch 1.12!) Warrior was the first one to revamp in Patch 1.6 with BWL release, but Shield Slam (31 talent point) only did moderate threat still. So Arms spec MT was still pretty normal. 

Edited by Walgrave

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Even tough im not fan of the gummy-style razorgore on feenix, I think it's a great idea to fine tune to today's standard.

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No.

 

If the Elysium staff at some point wished to release a new server with more difficult bosses, I have no problem with that. I wouldn't play on those servers, but I wouldn't have a problem with them existing.

 

But don't try to change the old Nost / new PVP server, the entire reason this project was/is so successful is because people want vanilla wow, not some modded version because you don't think raiding would be challenging to the experienced wow player. 

 

Honestly this suggestion is almost as stupid as the one about wanting to import the updated models and really fails to grasp the whole point behind this project.

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I would prefer if everything is the as close to the same thing as retail Vanilla.

We all know your stance before you post, thanks though.

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We all know your stance before you post, thanks though.

 

I am curious to know how you feel about the OP's suggestion. If I were a betting man, I would say you probably think these alterations should be added. Just a friendly reminder though, this (pic below) is what happened last time you though something should be allowed here that doesn't fit with the project design.

 

xVuqsaB.png

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I wouldn't mind some boost on most bosses, that'll make some fights a bit more interesting. However, it's not something that MUST be done because not every player and guild out there is experienced and hardcore (Dreamstate, NOPE, etc.). Also, there are guilds that are taking their time when it comes to progression or run with some not-so-viable/min-maxed specs which will be hampered by such boost.

The idea is good but I don't think it should take place at this very moment. May be somewhere after Naxxramas is cleared when decked out guilds/players are still looking for challenge in Vanilla but don't want to progress in TBC.

Edited by cryofsorrow

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To be honest the best way to make PVE content tuned is to make talents properly tuned.   Since 1.12 talent formulas are in place a number of things are just not right.  If a server can get proper patched talents each raid would be that much harder.  

 

 

 

Agreed. If the server were to use 1.4 talents I would not have even made this suggestion. However I think that's incredibly unlikely that we will ever see a server with them.

 

 

No.

 

If the Elysium staff at some point wished to release a new server with more difficult bosses, I have no problem with that. I wouldn't play on those servers, but I wouldn't have a problem with them existing.

 

But don't try to change the old Nost / new PVP server, the entire reason this project was/is so successful is because people want vanilla wow, not some modded version because you don't think raiding would be challenging to the experienced wow player. 

 

Honestly this suggestion is almost as stupid as the one about wanting to import the updated models and really fails to grasp the whole point behind this project.

 

Please read my entire post before writing back, I even addressed you in specific. People do want vanilla wow. As it stands with the current setup, it is drastically easier than vanilla wow due to the talent setup (ignoring the information available to us on every encounter). My idea to bring that difficulty up to what was experienced during vanilla wow at that time period was a buff to a raid's damage/armor/resistance/etc. We can't make ourselves do the gimped damage/healing/threat that 1.4 talent trees had, but we can bring the mobs stats to a higher level to simulate that difficulty. It could even be reverted after we progress in patches so players like yourselves could clear the content!

 

 

I wouldn't mind some boost on most bosses, that'll make some fights a bit more interesting. However, it's not something that MUST be done because not every player and guild out there is experienced and hardcore (Dreamstate, NOPE, etc.). Also, there are guilds that are taking their time when it comes to progression or run with some not-so-viable/min-maxed specs which will be hampered by such boost.

The idea is good but I don't think it should take place at this very moment. May be somewhere after Naxxramas is cleared when decked out guilds/players are still looking for challenge in Vanilla but don't want to progress in TBC.

 

I don't see the point in doing it "after Naxxramas". Call me pessimistic, but let's get to AQ40 first (for the first time in 4ish years on the private server scene). It should come now when it is supposed to be hard (but made easy by 1.12 talents).

 

 

All released raid mobs/world bosses were already boosted on Nost in terms of HP in order to balance end game patch talents, didn't help.

They did not do that.

http://wowwiki.wikia.com/wiki/Onyxia_(original)

1,100,000 HP

 

http://realmplayers.com/RaidStats/RaidOverview.aspx?Raid=38177

1,121,000

http://realmplayers.com/RaidStats/RaidOverview.aspx?Raid=38286

1,120,000

 

I'd say the discrepancy lies in swstats at that point, not an intentional buff.

 

 

If people want the vanilla wow experience, they should have it. It was a harder game. Doing this content with supersized talents makes it easier. This makes it a not vanilla experience. Tune up the raid instances until the point when we should have 1.12 talents, otherwise we aren't really getting vanilla wow.

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If people want the vanilla wow experience, they should have it. It was a harder game. Doing this content with supersized talents makes it easier. This makes it a not vanilla experience. Tune up the raid instances until the point when we should have 1.12 talents, otherwise we aren't really getting vanilla wow.

 

They won't do this. I would venture to say it is to ease the development from the project creators. 1.12 is the compromise, which lets them focus on fixing buggs and developing content. You are getting vanilla WoW. You are just ahead of the curve.

 

Also, this is a Blizzlike server. Nobody said anything about Blizzsame server.

 

For a guy like me, who champions everthing in Vanilla, the compromise of being a bit stronger than we should before the correct patch is a hit i'm willing to take. 

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They won't do this. I would venture to say it is to ease the development from the project creators. 1.12 is the compromise, which lets them focus on fixing buggs and developing content. You are getting vanilla WoW. You are just ahead of the curve.

 

Also, this is a Blizzlike server. Nobody said anything about Blizzsame server.

 

For a guy like me, who champions everthing in Vanilla, the compromise of being a bit stronger than we should before the correct patch is a hit i'm willing to take. 

 

Why shouldn't we try and recapture the difficulty of raiding MC/BWL? People wanted the vanilla experience. A tune up until we progress further down the PvE raids would help recapture it. It's easy to do, easy to revert back, and reduces the edge 1.12 talents give to the raiding community.

 

A lot of the gear from the server first clear of MC included gear gotten from quests from the barrens. This shouldn't be possible, and shouldn't happen.

Edited by hotdwarfsixpack

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This again? Trying to "buff" vanilla content is a really bad idea.

 

Increasing boss health/damage won't do anything except make gear requirements tighter. It'll still be the same exact mechanics that everyone knows how to do, and the same skilled players who know their class. Nothing will change except bosses taking longer to kill.

 

Adding in new mechanics would make the server not blizzlike.

 

And the biggest problem is that there would be endless arguing about the "proper" amount of buffing that should be done. There will be people crying that the buffs were too much, and people crying that the buffs were not enough.

 

No thanks.

 

Even if we were to magically patch the game with perfect patch 1.1 talents, we'd still have skilled players who know the raid strats and know how to gear up. We cannot realistically achieve this supposed level of difficulty from 2005. It is not feasible in the slightest. People need to accept the fact that MC and ZG are not meant to be difficult, and stop crying for buffs to what are supposed to be the entry-level raids.

Edited by gotmilk0112

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Gotmilk, you underestimate the talent difference. it's not a "5-10%" flat buff requirement, it is a completely different encounter with older talents. the way you approach a fight. Tanks were in arms spec. If you didn't bother reading my post. This means tanks threat generation and defensive mitigation were much lower than the current talents, to the point where it would effect the entire raid. There was NO fury warrior in PvE - the highest DPS PvE spec. There were only Arms warriors because Bloodthirst did not exist the way it does now. This is just a few examples. Do you still not see the significance of newer talents making current content easy? 

 

Rogue, arguably the number 2 DPS got their talent revamp in patch 1.12, AFTER Naxxramas was fully released. Progression even in Naxx involved older talents for rogues. 

 

Do some research before you make claims like "this won't do that, it will do this", back it up by facts.

 

“Facts do not cease to exist because they are ignored.” 
― Aldous HuxleyComplete Essays 2, 1926-29

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This again? Trying to "buff" vanilla content is a really bad idea.

 

Increasing boss health/damage won't do anything except make gear requirements tighter. It'll still be the same exact mechanics that everyone knows how to do, and the same skilled players who know their class. Nothing will change except bosses taking longer to kill.

 

Adding in new mechanics would make the server not blizzlike.

 

And the biggest problem is that there would be endless arguing about the "proper" amount of buffing that should be done. There will be people crying that the buffs were too much, and people crying that the buffs were not enough.

 

No thanks.

 

Even if we were to magically patch the game with perfect patch 1.1 talents, we'd still have skilled players who know the raid strats and know how to gear up. We cannot realistically achieve this supposed level of difficulty from 2005. It is not feasible in the slightest. People need to accept the fact that MC and ZG are not meant to be difficult, and stop crying for buffs to what are supposed to be the entry-level raids.

 

They were meant to be difficult when they were released. They were not entry level raids. They were the raids. And given that gear was all around dogshit in 1.4, it wouldn't force a tighter gear requirement, it would force players to a higher standard of playing if they wanted to see their purples. guilds shouldn't be able to roll MC with half their raid sporting фекал they got from the barrens, nor should killing ragnaros only require having 39 players with a pulse and internet connection.

 

 

buff the damage so the healers run OOM quicker

buff the health/armor/resistance so the dps are forced to try harder to kill the boss before the healers run oom.

 

rogues are going to have to learn the importance of pooling energy, healers are going to have to time their nukes better, and fury warriors are gonna have to finally make that macro that goes sword and board + shield wall to crank out those last seconds on progression bosses.

 

would people stop claiming "we can't achieve the difficulty we had back then so why even try?"

 

we try because we want what the real experience was, right? a hard raiding game where only the elite can guard the mailbox in orgrimmar/ironforge with their purples? maybe you want a game thats been dumbed down enough so you got a shot at killing something, but I don't. and I know many don't want it handed to them so easy either.

 

nothing worth it in the world (of warcraft) is easy to achieve.

Edited by hotdwarfsixpack

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Didn't read it all... but..

 

the only way to make it become a challenge again is not to flat buff damage/hp/whatever, it's to completely rewrite their mechanic in order to make every guide useless.

 

People have to spend countless hours to find the right way to face the challenge, not spend countless hours hoping RNG provides always best result.

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